Deprivation of assets? Can I be accused too?

[Mirandawrongs]

I have POA over my mother, jointly with my older sister.

I deal with all medical stuff and sister looks after the money.

mum is in a nursing home.
Self funding as over limit but will be under limit by November.

just found out my sister has given large sums of mums money to her adult children.
mum says it’s fine as the home can’t kick her out.

I’m concerned that this will be seen as depriving the assets mum has/had.

am I right to be worried??

I thought that there isn’t a hard and fast limit on what you can spend/give away before it counts as deprivation of assets. I’m sure the SW told me it’s assessed on a case by case basis.

Ugh! This is disgusting, the family getting their mucky little mitts on the Grandad's money.

You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

The £3k a year gift limit relates to inheritance tax. It has absolutely nothing to do with the POA. If OPs mother usually gave £3k pa gifts to her grandchildren then the Attorney can continue to do so. But OPs mum did not - I think £20 in a birthday card was mentioned so that sets the bar for how the Attorney can spend the money.

@Mirandawrongs you need to report this to the OPG straightaway. As you share the PoA you could be considered to be complicit if you knew but did not report.

Let the OPG deal with it. Your sister is using her power under the PoA to misappropriate funds for her own family's benefit.

And as for the family that used PoA to 'backpay' Christmas and Birthday gifts - you do realise that's straight up stealing?

I really don't think it is ever OK for a POA holder to give gifts, if you read the POA it gives you responsibilities for the person you look after's finances, health or both, and states you must act in their best interests.
As you usually only envoke the power when someone is absent or lacks capacity, you can't be allocating gifts or bequests, it's not your money to give away, it still belongs to the loved one, you can only use it in ways they need, anything else is fraud.

Too many people think having POA is like having the inheritance early, but it's not at all, its a hefty responsibility, and the OPG have oversight if they need too.

I keep basic, but thorough books and make sure that every payment is justified and represents the best value for money for my dad.

Exactly that, you can't use POA to give presents, but people do, amazingly - to my mind the OPG needs to produce much easier to digest guidance on what is and what is not acceptable that should be sent out with the POA documents. I think many people have taken on POA without reading any of the info.

It's absolutely fine to give small gifts at Christmas and on birthdays, as the person normally would. In the past my brother and I agreed £20 for each of mum's grandchildren and for ourselves (our own birthdays are the only ones our mum now remembers and tells us to buy for ourselves)
Having said that, mum's account is now running very low, so we agreed between us not to buy for our own birthdays and Christmas last year.

My understanding is that you can give gifts, but you need to exercise care and judgement to ensure these are of an appropriate value - as in, not detrimental to the interests of the person whose money you're using.

Generally it would be reasonable if someone had previously always stuck £20 in a card, to continue to do so (assuming it's affordable). However what's not acceptable is to use PoA to change the level of generosity and start giving out £10K birthday presents. Or in the case of a previous poster, decide to use the PoA to 'right wrongs' and give people gifts when previously they wouldn't have had one.

I’m going to report her.
tried to talk to her today about everything and about mum saying about the 10k.
she went quiet and said mum just gets confused.
this maybe true but mum saying this has led me onto this post (thank you all) and made me think more.
I’m now thinking that if I report, it can be looked into and dealt with by people other than me!

I need some gin

I think you have no option but to report now that you know what's going on, if you didnt you could possibly be seen as complicit? Obviously that's just my speculation but better safe than sorry.
I have a friend who's put the parents home up for sale with the intention of taking 200k for themselves and using the remaining 100k to put the parent in a care home, they seem to regard the parents money as theirs already!

Good for you, it's the right move IMHO.

The matter will be adjudicated on by the OPG, other peoples eyes on it as you say, if nothing is wrong then so be it.

But at least raising a red flag shows you are not complicit, if they decide to remove your sister as an attorney at least you will have a good chance of taking over as sole POA

Not sure how you address it with your sister, might be that you should tell her you have reported it rather than waiting for her to find out, thats the tricky bit!!!

Which will work only if the 100K doesn't run out and the authorities come after the balance!!

Its amazing what people think they can get away with, and by in large do!!!

A really tough decision OP, well done for making it!

I dont think they have any awareness that they are in the wrong!
As they see it they are having to organise things & help the parent and that makes the parents money their money by default. I tried to gently suggest that this mightn't work out for them but it wasn't landing so now I just smile & nod😶

Totally agree

Good luck with it all. It can't be easy to deal with. You're doing the right thing.

Just take a little time and think it through before you report OP, I’m not trying to guilt you but people on here will always suggest reporting her because ‘It’s the law’ but I wonder how many people saying that would actually report their own sibling themselves based on just the limited information you have.

just think about the repercussions of it before you do anything, your mum’s not going to be around forever, and you’ll be left with the fallout and legacy of whatever decisions you make now, make sure it’s the right one.

If it was me I would print out the forms, go and see her and say, ‘look, mum has let slip that you’re taking money out of her account, I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that it’s all above board but you’re not giving me anything to put my mind at rest, I’ve got the forms here to report you to the OPG for mishandling the money, so unless you let me access EVERYTHING and see what’s going on, I’ll file the forms in and let them deal with it.

if she sticks to her guns, by all means report her, she’s had her chance. But if she comes clean, then look at the information she gives you and see if it’s within the scope of a POA or if you think she’s pushing it and sort out a plan going forward, if the money taken can be rectified you could even ask to be a POA too so you both have access to everything.

It could be that your mum is genuinely asking her to do these things, but there’s a difference between taking money out of the accounts as you’re allowed to and setting it to one side (in case you need it) and gifting it to people that are pissing it up the wall, either way I’d give my sister a chance to come clean.

If the OP doesn't report her sister @sandyhappypeople there is a real risk that someone else will. Right now, she knows that her sister is depleting their mum's financial resources to benefit her children. SHE KNOWS.

It's a criminal act. The OP and her sister have signed a legal document which details exactly what the rights and responsibilities of a POA are. If the OP doesn't act, she's complicit.

This.

A a joint attorney the OP has no choice but to report - she has a legal duty to do so. The whole point of involving the OPG is that they will impartially investigate.

If OP keeps quiet, and her sister carries on misappropriating funds, then OP is in a whole heap of trouble herself if it transpires at a later date that she knew.

Care costs (along with everything else) are rocketing; councils are struggling for cash so they will investigate if they get even a sniff of wrong-doing. They can - and will - ask for bank statements and explanations of expenditure. Deprivation of assets is a criminal offence.

Here's a crazy idea - maybe instead of putting the onus on OP, her sister should have thought about the ramifications of her actions?

@sandyhappypeople if the OP was just a bystander, this option would be open to her. But by accepting the role of Attorney, the OP committed to act according to the rules set by the OPG. She can't turn a blind eye and maintain innocence. She must act in her Mum's best interests and that means that she must safeguard her Mum's assets, even if that means that she must self-fund for longer.

If I’m right in my assumption OP has only signed to be a medical POA, not financial, she has no authority or power with the money, so she’s not complicit in anything, it’s not the FBI!

I do understand your point but if her mother has asked her sister to do these things then it’s a grey area with regards to crimes being committed anyway, she’s ‘technically’ carrying out her mums wishes, and if her mum passes before November there’s nothing to answer to apart from the fact that’s she’s basically stealing her own inheritance early and by doing so diddling OP out of her share!

THAT is why if I was OP I’d be banging down her door and threatening to report her unless she fesses up, there still time to fix this, in my mind it’s more important that OP regain control of this situation now rather then report her sister for a crime that she may or may not have ‘technically’ committed?

In fairness, it’s a known fact that people DO deplete the funds to the maximum they can within the law, (I personally think you should take as much as is ‘reasonably’ allowed, but NOT to the detriment of any other beneficiaries) and if you do that, that money should be shelved in case they need it, or to go to the joint pot, not just gifted away to anyone to piss up the wall.

I think the sister has made a mistake and got carried away and she needs confronting before it goes any further, if she has to report her then so be it, I’m not against that, but I couldn’t throw my own sister under the bus without knowing I’d done everything I could to intervene first.

The sister absolutely should. But the onus is on the OP by dint of the fact that she signed up to a legal duty of care.

This is exactly why PoA should not be taken lightly.

She should have done. Unfortunately as the OP also has POA she can't just ignore and hope it goes away.

This is the second POA thread in the last couple of days with people really not understanding the legal ramifications of POA. Everyone who signs one really needs to read the paperwork thoroughly. It doesn't just give unfettered access to the elderly person's bank account which seems to be quite a common misconception judging by these threads.

There is clearly a massive amount of financial elder abuse going on if so many people don't even realise they're stealing.

I’m not suggesting she keeps quiet., I’m suggesting she properly confronts her sister before decided to report her or not.