How to have a conversation about the future

[TheOutlaws]

PIL are in their mid-late 70s and difficult.

We don’t really have a relationship, and DH ‘manages’ it from afar (2 hours away). They are ND (undiagnosed, obviously), FIL has Parkinson’s, MIL has a list of ailments getting longer by the day. Always been old before their time, fixed mindset, won’t listen, you get the picture.

They live rurally and are holding onto driving licences by the skin of their teeth (MIL’s currently revoked due to neurological issue). They are talking about moving nearer, but this has been put on hold due to ailments. They refuse to get taxis, so I think are putting pressure on other relatives to drive them to appointments. FIL is hoping to fall off a roof any day, to put an end to the understandable misery of Parkinson’s. MIL is more realistic and knows she needs to make plans for when they’re more poorly/less able to help themselves.

They want to see more of the kids, but then can’t cope having them at their place or ours (very well behaved 10 and 8 year old boys, 10 year old ASD/ADHD, which they refuse to acknowledge). They can’t go for walks. They cause a scene in restaurants by making faces and being rude to staff.

My gut feeling is that there is no conversation we can have that will help them with their current situation. How have you handled tricky older relatives, and what was the outcome?

Alas you wait till there is an absolute crisis and then it all blows up. All you can do is to research care homes/ care agencies so that when the wheels fall off you have got somewhere to start.

Thank you @CMOTDibbler, your advice is always sage. I know it’s a situation we can’t control, least of all because MIL only lets other people formulate plans, so that she can blame them (instead of herself) when they go wrong.

Ah, that game! FIL likes doing that, or playing the 'telling one son one thing and then denying it or saying something totally different to another' game. He's our only parent left now, so we've been through a lot of coping strategies through it all. The elderly parents board, and the support of all the ladies here was invaluable in retaining my sanity over the many years I had to deal with my parents and then 2 years of MIL being terminally ill

Sorry to hear that, CMOT. Unfortunately, I think the elderly parents board is somewhere I’ll need to consult as the PILs (who are already tricky personalities) get more embroiled in their issues, and more intransigent. DH is an only, so we can’t even talk to anyone IRL 😨

You can’t change folk, a car accident or other drama, will force change.
i have Parkinson’s,live alone at 61, it changes and varies, can’t work, have nuro eye issues. ( unknown currently).
Gave up driving, ask for help, via friends, use buses and taxis if needed, online food shopping if needed.
life is always full of the unexpected

How much support are you prepared to give? What situation would you see as 'making the best of it?
Sadly my experience with my dad has been pretty much how pp described it- an absolute crisis, followed 6 of the hardest months of my life dealing with him. There are loads of things that can be done but it doesn't sound like they (or you?)would be open to them? I'm thinking LPA, major downsizing, moving nearer to you...

@InDubiousBattle

MIL’s newest plan sounds almost exactly as you describe, but she’s shelved it because FIL doesn’t want to do it. I have a suspicion that he’s trying to orchestrate a major fall from a high place, he’s fairly suicidal. (That’s not me being lighthearted, that’s a realistic assessment).

DH is prepared to see more of them to help out should they move nearer, but won’t do it if they’re 2 hours away, as they currently are. So this is where we find ourselves, seeing them twice a year max because MIL won’t propose visits in case they go wrong, and FIL trying to arrange death by roof fall.

Does he have a social worker? Despite all I've heard and how under funded and over stretched they are social services were good with my dad.
I think that there comes a point where you have to accept that whilst they have capacity to make their own decisions then you have little choice but to accept them. A will would be useful. PoA is straightforward to set up and an easy sell to people I think. We had the difficult conversations with my dad, talked about wills/Poa, tried to get him to downsize, offered (and gave)help and it took the massive crisis to actually change things.

Thanks @InDubiousBattle, despite their poor health, I don’t think either of them would accept a visit from a social worker, because they don’t see themselves as not coping. So you’re right: we play the waiting game! And DH can take the off day off to help in garden etc.

They have wills, which MIL brings up A LOT. We go grey rock when she raises it, because we don’t want to get into trouble for deprivation of assets, or be bribed into a silly decision like them moving in next door (this would not work for us).

Sympathies OP, it's hard. IME, change is precipitated by a crisis, followed by loads of anguish and painful readjustments, followed by a gentle decline until the next crisis. When driving ability declines, we see lots of tiny incidents (not driving in the dark/ to new places, lots of small parking and gatepost scrapes etc) well before any bigger problems.

On a practical note, can your DH remove ladders or padlock them up and "lose"/ remove the key?

@Defiantlynot41 FIL is EXTREMELY handy and spends his life up a ladder. He actually built their previous house basically from foundations up. DH is erm ‘ungifted in the CDT department’ so the thought of him wresting FIL over a ladder is giving me the snorts

It’s so hard to build a picture of the situation from piecemeal info, I’m really sorry if this is a dripfeed 😨

Having said that FIL is handy and always on the roof, he is obviously severely incapacitated by fairly advanced Parkinson’s, so this is another factor in him not wanting to carry on. His perspective is that if he can’t go up a ladder, he might as well fall off one, iyswim.

Have they got significant savings and a family sized house? A live in carer could be a possibility. Once the need becomes acute (via ladder or other means).

But yes, the conversation is often the hardest bit.

@EggInANest Yes, and yes. From my limited knowledge of live-in carers, I believe that this might be the solution, in some form or other. The conversation could be a year or five years away, depending on events.

I’m not sure what your problem is - you say you only see them twice a year! You don't have to like them, just let them get on with their lives as they want to. As for FIL wanting to get up a ladder, it’s his choice.

this website is helpful to help you discuss all sorts of issues that may arise as someone gets older or ill - https://compassionindying.org.uk/
despite the depressing title!

Unfortunately the wait it out suggestion is often the only solution. FIL refused to surrender his driving license - until he hit a bus, and refused to consider adequate help until he fell 3 times in the space of a month and was on the floor all night all 3 times....

@Sneezel will read, thank you so much.

@Cyclistmumgrandma gosh, that is incredibly shocking, I guess it really does take a crisis to bring things to a head.

@Soontobe60 DH is an only, so he’ll be fairly involved, despite having a difficult relationship with them. They’ve never accepted his adult status, as MIL says, ‘He’s still my child!’…

Is there a relative or friend/ minister etc they might listen to? Do they have attendance allowance to fund gardener / cleaner etc?

@thesandwich I wonder if they might be eligible for this. I’ll get DH to mention it. Thank you.

Maybe counter the next "falling off a ladder" joke with the possible reality of survival with multiple broken limbs, permanent loss of mobility and possible paralysis. Unless he's up the church steeple there's no guarentee of this being the swift end he may be imagining it to be.

If nothing else, Power of Attorney for finance (I know someone who thought this was too much bother, they are now applying to the Court of Protection for deputyship and that's even more bother). I wish I had some magic solution but my experience (sample of two) was that it took a run of small crises before the big one. No amount of planning would have changed anything because both of them would have said that they were coping perfectly fine with no outside help at all. There was no need for (thing), no need at all.

If your husband is helping in the garden then that's a waste of the time he has there. A gardener could be doing that during the week. If they have the funds to make future live in carers an option then they have the money for a gardener now.

@Knotaknitter Good points.

If I’m being totally honest, we’re headed for a crisis spiral. Any conversation is met with Cissy-and-Ada-style silent mouthing or catsbum mouth. DH had, ‘what do YOU want?’ from MIL the other day (moving house conversation), and he had to say he was happy for them to move nearer but that it had to be their decision. They want help but they won’t ask for it, nor accept it. They’re a controlling headache.

Oh the ‘what do you want?’ deflect is classic my mum -refuses to make a decision so everyone else can be blamed, it’s maddening

One thing i’ll caution on POA is it’s taking months to get set up and finalised by whichever govt org does that, so worth doing soon if you need it

Thanks @LittleMy77