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Elderly parents

Dementia, stage 4 cancer. Care entitlement and nursing homes?

132 replies

Pariswithkids · 15/04/2023 12:16

We have cared for dmil for 8 years. This used to be care we shared with DHs brother (we both adapted our homes) but 12 months ago brother couldn’t continue with it. Dementia is now very advanced, incontinence, sometimes doubly and this week we got breast and lymphoma cancer diagnosis. Mobility is deteriorating very rapidly it feels, she sometimes can’t get on the stairlift now and has to stay in bed. She’s managed it today however. It just feels like the end is nigh and I don’t really know what to do. I don’t want her to get stuck one day and and up in a hospital ward.

should we be considering nursing home? DH is worried about this because when his brother sorted the house sale and poa the solicitor said to take £800 each per month as reasonable care fees for themselves to keep her below the 23k threshold and because they had both had to give up work, so this is what they do. Is that wrong? DH is worried our assets could now be in jeopardy to fund care?

or because of the cancer diagnosis, the dr seems to suggest it’s terminal, are we entitled to maybe some home nursing or something?

i just don’t know where to start and what’s best and it feels she’s got quite unwell quite quickly now

thank you

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hatgirl · 15/04/2023 12:22

Has the brother continued to take the £800 a month even though he is not providing the care any more?

When the house was sold where did the lump sum go to?

What is her weekly income from pensions etc?

The place to start is with a Care Act assessment. If there are nursing needs that might meet the threshold for fully funded continuing health care then it should be identified then and a referral made to the NHS for a decision support tool (DST) to be completed.

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Pariswithkids · 15/04/2023 12:33

Thank you for replying.

yes he still takes £800.

they split the lump sum but a lot of it went on adapting our homes. He made her an annexe and we installed en-suite disability bathroom, stairlift etc.

I’m not sure about her weekly income. Probably £400 if this is what it takes to keep it below threshold. I will find out.

I was just reading about continuing healthcare it seems very difficult to get? I’m not sure she has nursing needs just yet. I manage to shower and dress her daily, change her if needed. She can still feed herself and walk v short distances with her frame. I’m not sure what I’m asking really! Just feels like we will reach a crisis if I don’t plan something

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Pariswithkids · 15/04/2023 12:36

Is taking money for yourself like this a normal legal thing to do?

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ajenniejonesworld · 15/04/2023 12:39

Have you been told what her likely prognosis is? That will impact what can be provided.
Has she been referred to the palliative care team? They will be the ones best placed to explain what the most appropriate options are for your MIL at this stage.
Why is your BIL still taking £800?

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ajenniejonesworld · 15/04/2023 12:41

And when her house was sold, did she end up with less that £23000? That doesn't sound right.

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Chowtime · 15/04/2023 12:41

Pariswithkids · 15/04/2023 12:36

Is taking money for yourself like this a normal legal thing to do?

I think it's OK if you've given up a job to become the carer yes. I don't think the one not providing care should have been taking £800 a month from his mothers estate.

At any rate she can go into a care home paid for with public funds if she has no assets but it will be a nasty cheap one with a horrid little bedroom, smelling of piss and cabbage and the only one with any space might be miles away. I'd rather have kept that money for my mum to have a nicer care home to be honest.

CHC very difficult to get, yes.

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Pariswithkids · 15/04/2023 12:43

No we haven’t really been given a prognosis than it’s not very good, is likely to be numerous cancers but that she’s too frail to be given a barrage of tests. I will ask for a proper prognosis. She is to start some medicine but this hasn’t been prescribed yet. Breast cancer nurse called to introduce herself but I don’t think she was palliative. I will call next week and ask these things.

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PotteringAlonggotkickedoutandhadtoreregister · 15/04/2023 12:44

I think he is on a very sticky wicket for taking £800 a month for care whilst not, in fact, providing care…

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hatgirl · 15/04/2023 12:45

they split the lump sum

A solicitor advised you to do this??

Did MIL have the mental capacity to decide that she wanted that to happen and understand that it would be likely to be viewed as deprivation of capital later down the line?

The £800 payment is fine and reasonable as long as the care is actually being provided by the person recieving it. BIL should not be taking it if he is no longer providing the care.

Honestly... yes I think you might find yourselves in a bit of a pickle if you get the local authority involved.

I would get legal advice, from a different solicitor

the £800 to BIL needs to be stopped immediately.

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Pariswithkids · 15/04/2023 12:47

ajenniejonesworld · 15/04/2023 12:41

And when her house was sold, did she end up with less that £23000? That doesn't sound right.

brothers split the proceeds and used it to adapt the homes and kept the difference. This was as per legal advice, according to bother

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TheShellBeach · 15/04/2023 12:47

I would ask for a referral to the district nurse, as it sounds like your MIL is terminal.
CHC is almost impossible to get.
So sorry you're facing this. It sounds like you've been so lovely to her.

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hatgirl · 15/04/2023 12:49

ajenniejonesworld · 15/04/2023 12:41

And when her house was sold, did she end up with less that £23000? That doesn't sound right.

It's not, and fairly clear cut deprivation of assets/ capital.

OP's DH is right to be concerned and clearly understands that what they have done is questionable.

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Pariswithkids · 15/04/2023 12:49

Chowtime · 15/04/2023 12:41

I think it's OK if you've given up a job to become the carer yes. I don't think the one not providing care should have been taking £800 a month from his mothers estate.

At any rate she can go into a care home paid for with public funds if she has no assets but it will be a nasty cheap one with a horrid little bedroom, smelling of piss and cabbage and the only one with any space might be miles away. I'd rather have kept that money for my mum to have a nicer care home to be honest.

CHC very difficult to get, yes.

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I think the nicest care home has been with me for 8 years tbh.

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Pariswithkids · 15/04/2023 12:50

Yes she had capacity when her was sold. Interestedly and I sometimes forget this, didn’t mean to drip. She was never actually on the deeds, it was all in her late husband’s name

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OneForTheRoadThen · 15/04/2023 12:52

So did she split her time between the 2 brothers houses then? It seems odd that they both made improvements/ adaptions?

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ajenniejonesworld · 15/04/2023 12:53

"
brothers split the proceeds and used it to adapt the homes and kept the difference. This was as per legal advice, according to bother"

I'm sorry but this doesn't sound right at all and puts them on very shaky ground re: deprivation of assets.

You can justify two house being adapted for one person (and what kind of adaptations?)
And unless this was done a long time ago no way can they justify keeping the proceeds.

I'd be really interested to see the legal justification for this.

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MargotDeWitt · 15/04/2023 12:53

So she has alternated between living with you and Dh's brother? Is that why both houses needed to be adapted?

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Pariswithkids · 15/04/2023 12:54

OneForTheRoadThen · 15/04/2023 12:52

So did she split her time between the 2 brothers houses then? It seems odd that they both made improvements/ adaptions?

Yes two weeks here and two weeks there. Why odd? It worked well and she’s been very well cared for. It’s difficult and it was nice to have that break. Now it’s very difficult indeed but we do get 4 weeks respite per year.

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ajenniejonesworld · 15/04/2023 12:55

(I meant to say you CAN'T justify adapting two properties)

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Felixss · 15/04/2023 12:55

There won't be any treatment they can give with severe dementia and stage 4 cancer. It will be pallative only she might get CHC for the cancer. It depends on the prognosis CHC usually funds the end.

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Oodieandacuppatonightplease · 15/04/2023 12:56

Not relevant immediately but if your mother in law were admitted to hospital and you couldn’t meet her care needs on discharge it us likely they would find her a care setting. Haven’t experienced it as yet but this is what we’ve been told. Good luck.

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LadyGardenersQuestionTime · 15/04/2023 12:58

Who has POA?

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Pariswithkids · 15/04/2023 12:58

I really don’t see why adapting both homes and sharing care of her where she has wonderful facilities and her pets, family, grandchildren, gardens is a bad thing? That was entirely done in her best interests to prevent her having to go into care.

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Pariswithkids · 15/04/2023 12:58

Both brothers have POA . She is 92 btw.

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Pariswithkids · 15/04/2023 12:59

The adaptations are not pretty. They are disabled facilities

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