Financial Abuse, POA, Dementia

[WhatToDoAboutMom]

I’ve name changed as this could be outing (as I hope no one else is experiencing this) it’s quite long winded and complicated so please bear with me.

Just really looking for some advice.

DM is 94, DF passed aroubd 15 years ago and DM lived alone until 2017. The house was owned, mortgage free and DM had a small private pension, and attendance allowance.

She has 3 daughters (P - Eldest, J youngest) and myself as the middle child,
She has several grandchildren although the only 2 who are relevant are J’s 2 children (Niece D) and Nephew N)

in 2017 DM was still reasonably able and independent for her age although her eyesight was failing.

in 2017 my niece D moved in with DM after a relationship breakup. DM didn’t want to charge her anything for living there but D did take over the bulk of household chores and take DM shopping, to appointments etc.

DM had minimal tech knowledge, although did incredibly well for her age, used email, Google, Facebook and internet banking, and had all bills online.

As her eyesight deteriorated she asked D to help her manage her bills, read emails etc.

Over time, control of these things was gradually passed to D to manage, as DM just couldn’t see to do it herself. As her health deteriorated D would go and get her shopping, rather than take her out etc

DM allowed D to use her card for shopping, or to get cash out as needed and always trusted N to manage things. She also allows her access to her internet banking details to keep an eye on things and make payments etc. I’m aware this shouldn’t have happened.

Myself and my sibling we not really aware or the extent of D’s involvement, as DM has always been fiercely independent. And kept financial things private. I am aware that DM sometimes gave her grandchildren money, in situations such as a house move, birthday, weddings, and possible to occasionally just help out if they were struggling. No issue with this, it’s her money.

Fast forward to 2020. Nephew (N) (D’s brother) had spoken with DM about her savings, and then spoke with both myself and J (his mother and aunt)
as D had said a few things to him that he felt rang alarm bells in regards to DMs money,

These included:
DM had told him she had savings for a funeral, but D had told him that DM didn’t have enough money for a house repair at the time which would have only been a couple of hundred pound.

D had told N she wanted to get DM’s bank changed

D had told N that she also wanted DM to change her Will as DM didn’t want to include me and P.

N had kept a copy of these conversations and passed them on.

Both myself and J spoke with DM

although, as siblings we don’t speak to each other and I feel this is the bulk of the issue

DM couldn’t access her online banking as she couldn’t remember the details, she also didn’t know/couldn’t remember the details to call the bank. We offered to take her to the bank,

And she refused to go.
it was my belief she was frightened to find out if D had done anything wrong as if we made her move out DM was at a point where she may have needed (but wouldn’t have wanted) care.

P then offered to go to the bank on DMs behalf and took a letter signed by DM and a copy of a POA with her which DM had set up years before.

P advised us all that she had been to the bank and all was fine, and then told me and J that DM didn’t want us knowing about her finances.
This didn’t sit right with me but DM was deemed to be of sound mind at the time.

All continued as it was, and nothing was mentioned again.

Until late last year when I visited DM and she told me she had sold her home and was moving in to care in 2 days time. D and J had assisted her and she had not wanted myself and P to know.

I was hurt, but it’s her house, her money and her choice.

I continued to visit but have never been involved in DMs finances, personal care etc.As this is what she wanted.

in December P had DM sign the POA to bring it in to force as DMS house sale was due to go through and a substantial amount would be in the bank and need to be managed.

Thos was done without telling me or J although we are all named on the POA.
Sadly DM has, I fear dementia, although this has never been diagnosed. Her memory is appalling, and personally I don’t feel she was capable of signing, not to mention that she wouldn’t be able to see it.

But I agreed that the POA should now stand, so there was no point challenging how it had happened.

P went to the bank and was given a months statement, she queried some payment and D explained these as to being related to moving in to care, clearing the house etc.

Heres where it all gets more complicated.

P has since looked back at DM’s account and has discovered horrific financial abuse that can have only been done by D
Not just in 2020, but as far back as 2017.

She has compiled a spreadsheet of transactions she cannot place. But has ignored things which could have been for DM.

Between 2017-2020 when the initial concern was raised, around 17k left DMs account.
Some was large cash withdrawals, and some of this cash could have been for DM but she was lately housebound and just had the occasional haircut or podiatry visit.

Therea a lot of Amazon purchases, again some could be for DM but she really wouldn’t have brought that much.

There’s a lot of credit card and loan payments. DM was NEVER in debt. I can’t rule out that she may have agreed to some things of for D
but I struggle to believe she would have agreed to this much.

The largest amounts by far went directly to D
Again, some could be genuine, D had done some shopping and transferred herself the money
but we are talking around 10k of direct transfers in 3 years and DM just didn’t live a life where she spent that amount, and although I believe she would help her grandchildren with regards to a few hundred pound here and there, some of these transfers were over 1k
and it’s evident that savings were being withdrawn to pay it.

In 2018 a 7k loan was taken out in DMs name. And her account used to pay it back. 2k was put back in to her savings, the other 5k was transferred to D.

Again, I can’t rule out that DM agreed to this, but I just don’t see it. I asked to borrow a little money (1k myself in 2019) and got a resounding no. So I struggle to believe she would give so much to one person and refuse to help others. I may add there are minimal transfers to other grandchildren and most are clearly £20 for Xmas/birthday.

Now, or transpires that P found out about the loan when she went to the bank in 2020. She has a close relationship with D who said she’s gotten in a bit of a mess and DM had agreed it all, nobody asked DM to confirm!

But P accepted D’s word and didn’t look in to anything else. They made an agreement that D would pay DM back and pay the remaining loan herself.

Now, we can see that not only did this not happen and DM paid the entire loan off. D continued to use her account until 2022, as if it were her own and spent a further 27k! Amazon, car insurance (DM doesn’t drive) haircuts, holidays, pubs, restaurants, takeaways. It appears she even took DMs card on holiday with her as the charges are in different places.
There are charges for a speeding course, and purchases from lovehoney

There are multiple more credit card, loan and store account payments, and multiple transfers direct to D.

From 2017-2020 around 45k is unaccounted for.
With the best will in the world and being as generous as I can, I cannot believe DM knew, or agreed to most of this.

D has swiftly cut all contact with everyone after saying everything is genuine but she doesn’t have to prove herself.

J won’t get involved

N has explained a couple of payments made to him, all fine, had proof of purchases for DM, was help a couple of times when moving house, totalled about £500. But there as well is a huge difference. DM has been by far closer to N in the past 15 years than anyone (though he lives overseas), in terms of contact, he’s maintained daily contained so I just can’t swallow that she would help one grandchild to the time of 45k while giving another (who is disabled and on a much lower income, a couple of hundred).

N has also clarified a couple of other things, regarding how tech savvy DM was, and whether she would’ve been able/likely to get credit and store cards etc.
And detained a time when DM suddenly couldn’t get online, and it transpires her Wi-Fi dongle was being removed (coincidently this was around the time of the loan)

He also detailed when DMS computer and phone were suddenly ‘removed because she can’t see them’
im ashamed to say that nobody in the family, myself included has much to do with N, and we’ve always dismissed any concerns as him starting trouble over his sister
As this is what we have been led to believe he is like

When it actual fact it looks as though he did his best to raise concerns 3 years ago
and we all wilfully Ignored him or in Ps case, covered for D.

Personally I would like to contact police.
But P is the one with the access to finances and is resistant, presumably because she is complicit having discovered the loan and done nothing.

But the issue is, that Dm is confused and very vulnerable.
She won’t know, or remember whether she agrees to give D money

So could we ever actually prove it was abuse? and theft?

D is also in line to inherit money, although we are confident the will is genuine. She’s getting the same as the other grandkids.

Bur it sticks in my throat to give her more money after what she has already had. If we can prove theft, can we deny her the inheritance?

Presumably we can’t ask DM to change her will, because even if she agrees, it could be argued she isn’t capable

Not really sure what advice anyone can give and I’m fully aware we all failed DM massively

Thanks for reading

But I still don’t really how she is able to just take them the POA unless she can prove DM doesn’t have capacity.

An LPA for financial decisions can be used at any time if that's the way it's set up. The person doesn't have to lack mental capacity.

You should have been sent a copy of the LPA and you should have signed it?

You can get a copy from the Office of the Public guardian ( I think)

Sorry - I had t refreshed the thread so am repeating what others have already said

I don't think this type of situation is unusual. It's happened in my husbands family. His brother had access to my MILS accounts for years and has taken so much money. He is a nasty thieving bastard but, unfortunately, my Husband and his Mum don't want to deal with it at all so it carries on even now that his Mum is in a care home.

If I understand correctly you and J now have a copy of the POA and lodged it with the bank. As you have POA:

• Set up a new email e.g. DMname POA
• Set up a new bank account again in DMs name with POA possibly with a different bank so it is completely separate and not linked to any other accounts.
• Go through all your DMs paperwork and all her online accounts and either close them I.e. no longer needs electric, gas etc. Those she does need transfer to DM name POA and use your/Js address as POA or if you can use the POA email for electronic accounts.
• For all financial accounts again change them to POA accounts.
• Do your own audit of your DMs accounts, as POA you can ask for copies of past bank statements.
• As POA keep accurate records of all expenditure. The POA email will help.

I am assuming from your OP that your DM is financially comfortable and with the house sale can fund the home. Deprivation of assets may therefore not be an issue.

WRT D and P, I agree with a pp that P may not be as innocent as just covering for D. Until you get full oversight you will not know the full extent of the financial abuse. If P has done anything whilst the POA is in place you can report her to OPG and potentially have her repay any money she can’t account for. I would certainly be looking very closely at what happened with the money from the house sale.

Age concern may be able to advise you of the legal routes with D, it is highly likely she will claim your DM gave her the money and it will be difficult to prove otherwise.

I know how it feels to see a large chunk of your DMs money being misappropriated, but think about it a different way, D helped your DM stay in her home, caring for her etc. as she aged. Your DM would most likely have had to pay for an increasing amount of care from 2017. No offence but you, P and J were relieved of having to do the cooking, cleaning, shopping, admin, appointments etc. because D shouldered the burden.

If D claimed £10 per hour x 10 hours a week = £100 per week x 52 weeks = £5,200 a year x 6 years (2017 to 2022)= £31,200. To put it into context my DM has just started to have help and it is costing nearly £300 a week for 10 hours.

Personally once I got to the bottom of how much D took if it is around the £40k+ mark and as long as it won’t impact on your DM paying for her home I would consider what is best for your DM. She is missing seeing D and it maybe in her best interests to resume the relationship. Consider the £40k as payment for caring for your DM and try to rebuild the relationship between DM and D.

I don’t think a new bank account could be set up in DM ‘s name by her attorneys without her consent (bank would still need id checks like passport).

assume possible to change online banking password though

Banks definitely set up POA accounts I may have worded it wrong e.g POA account for DM

But I still don’t really how she is able to just take them the POA unless she can prove DM doesn’t have capacity. Depending on which box was ticked when the Financial PoA was applied for, it can be used when the donor still has capacity.

I can contact police. But ultimately, I don’t personally have ‘proof’ I only have a list of transactions emailed to me by O. So seek advice from the OPG

Bank will investigate but you'd need statements to show all the transactions & loan details. If you are named as an attorney (rather than just as someone to be informed when the PoA is registered) this will allow you to see the transactions.

I don’t think a new bank account could be set up in DM ‘s name by her attorneys without her consent (bank would still need id checks like passport). Yes it can be. I’ve done this. The id required is mine, not the donor’s.

But I wouldn’t follow princess’s route. If OP can do that, then so can P.

Ah, thanks, both.

I don’t think we will need this but it hadn’t crossed my mind it might be possible.

A very similar thing happened in my family, I won’t say too much because I don’t want to be outing, but it was three siblings (one was my dad) and my cousin was living in the house. All got very messy and I wish we’d gone to the police because a lot of money went missing (about £250k)

I resent my cousins and that aunt and uncle so much, I can’t even be pleasant to them. I only see them if I really have to. It pains me seeing them flashing the cash left right and Centre.

Go to the police. Get it investigated

That is awful. You have to go to the police. Terrible fraud and abuse of power of a vulnerable person.