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Elderly parents

Financial Abuse, POA, Dementia

37 replies

WhatToDoAboutMom · 05/02/2023 14:13

I’ve name changed as this could be outing (as I hope no one else is experiencing this) it’s quite long winded and complicated so please bear with me.

Just really looking for some advice.

DM is 94, DF passed aroubd 15 years ago and DM lived alone until 2017. The house was owned, mortgage free and DM had a small private pension, and attendance allowance.

She has 3 daughters (P - Eldest, J youngest) and myself as the middle child,
She has several grandchildren although the only 2 who are relevant are J’s 2 children (Niece D) and Nephew N)

in 2017 DM was still reasonably able and independent for her age although her eyesight was failing.

in 2017 my niece D moved in with DM after a relationship breakup. DM didn’t want to charge her anything for living there but D did take over the bulk of household chores and take DM shopping, to appointments etc.

DM had minimal tech knowledge, although did incredibly well for her age, used email, Google, Facebook and internet banking, and had all bills online.

As her eyesight deteriorated she asked D to help her manage her bills, read emails etc.

Over time, control of these things was gradually passed to D to manage, as DM just couldn’t see to do it herself. As her health deteriorated D would go and get her shopping, rather than take her out etc

DM allowed D to use her card for shopping, or to get cash out as needed and always trusted N to manage things. She also allows her access to her internet banking details to keep an eye on things and make payments etc. I’m aware this shouldn’t have happened.

Myself and my sibling we not really aware or the extent of D’s involvement, as DM has always been fiercely independent. And kept financial things private. I am aware that DM sometimes gave her grandchildren money, in situations such as a house move, birthday, weddings, and possible to occasionally just help out if they were struggling. No issue with this, it’s her money.

Fast forward to 2020. Nephew (N) (D’s brother) had spoken with DM about her savings, and then spoke with both myself and J (his mother and aunt)
as D had said a few things to him that he felt rang alarm bells in regards to DMs money,

These included:
DM had told him she had savings for a funeral, but D had told him that DM didn’t have enough money for a house repair at the time which would have only been a couple of hundred pound.

D had told N she wanted to get DM’s bank changed

D had told N that she also wanted DM to change her Will as DM didn’t want to include me and P.

N had kept a copy of these conversations and passed them on.

Both myself and J spoke with DM

although, as siblings we don’t speak to each other and I feel this is the bulk of the issue

DM couldn’t access her online banking as she couldn’t remember the details, she also didn’t know/couldn’t remember the details to call the bank. We offered to take her to the bank,

And she refused to go.
it was my belief she was frightened to find out if D had done anything wrong as if we made her move out DM was at a point where she may have needed (but wouldn’t have wanted) care.

P then offered to go to the bank on DMs behalf and took a letter signed by DM and a copy of a POA with her which DM had set up years before.

P advised us all that she had been to the bank and all was fine, and then told me and J that DM didn’t want us knowing about her finances.
This didn’t sit right with me but DM was deemed to be of sound mind at the time.

All continued as it was, and nothing was mentioned again.

Until late last year when I visited DM and she told me she had sold her home and was moving in to care in 2 days time. D and J had assisted her and she had not wanted myself and P to know.

I was hurt, but it’s her house, her money and her choice.

I continued to visit but have never been involved in DMs finances, personal care etc.As this is what she wanted.

in December P had DM sign the POA to bring it in to force as DMS house sale was due to go through and a substantial amount would be in the bank and need to be managed.

Thos was done without telling me or J although we are all named on the POA.
Sadly DM has, I fear dementia, although this has never been diagnosed. Her memory is appalling, and personally I don’t feel she was capable of signing, not to mention that she wouldn’t be able to see it.

But I agreed that the POA should now stand, so there was no point challenging how it had happened.

P went to the bank and was given a months statement, she queried some payment and D explained these as to being related to moving in to care, clearing the house etc.

Heres where it all gets more complicated.

P has since looked back at DM’s account and has discovered horrific financial abuse that can have only been done by D
Not just in 2020, but as far back as 2017.

She has compiled a spreadsheet of transactions she cannot place. But has ignored things which could have been for DM.

Between 2017-2020 when the initial concern was raised, around 17k left DMs account.
Some was large cash withdrawals, and some of this cash could have been for DM but she was lately housebound and just had the occasional haircut or podiatry visit.

Therea a lot of Amazon purchases, again some could be for DM but she really wouldn’t have brought that much.

There’s a lot of credit card and loan payments. DM was NEVER in debt. I can’t rule out that she may have agreed to some things of for D
but I struggle to believe she would have agreed to this much.

The largest amounts by far went directly to D
Again, some could be genuine, D had done some shopping and transferred herself the money
but we are talking around 10k of direct transfers in 3 years and DM just didn’t live a life where she spent that amount, and although I believe she would help her grandchildren with regards to a few hundred pound here and there, some of these transfers were over 1k
and it’s evident that savings were being withdrawn to pay it.

In 2018 a 7k loan was taken out in DMs name. And her account used to pay it back. 2k was put back in to her savings, the other 5k was transferred to D.

Again, I can’t rule out that DM agreed to this, but I just don’t see it. I asked to borrow a little money (1k myself in 2019) and got a resounding no. So I struggle to believe she would give so much to one person and refuse to help others. I may add there are minimal transfers to other grandchildren and most are clearly £20 for Xmas/birthday.

Now, or transpires that P found out about the loan when she went to the bank in 2020. She has a close relationship with D who said she’s gotten in a bit of a mess and DM had agreed it all, nobody asked DM to confirm!

But P accepted D’s word and didn’t look in to anything else. They made an agreement that D would pay DM back and pay the remaining loan herself.

Now, we can see that not only did this not happen and DM paid the entire loan off. D continued to use her account until 2022, as if it were her own and spent a further 27k! Amazon, car insurance (DM doesn’t drive) haircuts, holidays, pubs, restaurants, takeaways. It appears she even took DMs card on holiday with her as the charges are in different places.
There are charges for a speeding course, and purchases from lovehoney

There are multiple more credit card, loan and store account payments, and multiple transfers direct to D.

From 2017-2020 around 45k is unaccounted for.
With the best will in the world and being as generous as I can, I cannot believe DM knew, or agreed to most of this.

D has swiftly cut all contact with everyone after saying everything is genuine but she doesn’t have to prove herself.

J won’t get involved

N has explained a couple of payments made to him, all fine, had proof of purchases for DM, was help a couple of times when moving house, totalled about £500. But there as well is a huge difference. DM has been by far closer to N in the past 15 years than anyone (though he lives overseas), in terms of contact, he’s maintained daily contained so I just can’t swallow that she would help one grandchild to the time of 45k while giving another (who is disabled and on a much lower income, a couple of hundred).

N has also clarified a couple of other things, regarding how tech savvy DM was, and whether she would’ve been able/likely to get credit and store cards etc.
And detained a time when DM suddenly couldn’t get online, and it transpires her Wi-Fi dongle was being removed (coincidently this was around the time of the loan)

He also detailed when DMS computer and phone were suddenly ‘removed because she can’t see them’
im ashamed to say that nobody in the family, myself included has much to do with N, and we’ve always dismissed any concerns as him starting trouble over his sister
As this is what we have been led to believe he is like

When it actual fact it looks as though he did his best to raise concerns 3 years ago
and we all wilfully Ignored him or in Ps case, covered for D.

Personally I would like to contact police.
But P is the one with the access to finances and is resistant, presumably because she is complicit having discovered the loan and done nothing.

But the issue is, that Dm is confused and very vulnerable.
She won’t know, or remember whether she agrees to give D money

So could we ever actually prove it was abuse? and theft?

D is also in line to inherit money, although we are confident the will is genuine. She’s getting the same as the other grandkids.

Bur it sticks in my throat to give her more money after what she has already had. If we can prove theft, can we deny her the inheritance?

Presumably we can’t ask DM to change her will, because even if she agrees, it could be argued she isn’t capable

Not really sure what advice anyone can give and I’m fully aware we all failed DM massively

Thanks for reading

OP posts:
Gonnagetacatwhenimovein · 05/02/2023 14:31

Police police police

EmotionalBlackmail · 05/02/2023 14:48

Go to the police. That's theft and also abuse of a position of trust. If D can do it to her grandmother then who else could she do it too?

And P should have followed through and checked the loan was being repaid so is complicit.

SheilaFentiman · 06/02/2023 08:38

To check - what do you mean that DM signed the POA in December? Is it actually registered at the office of public guardianship?

SheilaFentiman · 06/02/2023 08:48

IANAL.

I believe the inheritance is separate to any crime. So D would likely get her stake even if you could prove the theft.

I don’t think anything particularly bad would happen to P, criminally, as she made an arrangement for D to pay back (which D did not). She might be disbarred from being an attorney for your mum, though.

if you want to report to police, the fact that you are all on the POA means the bank should give you/police whatever access you need, with or without P’s agreement.

What is the endgame that you want?

Chevyimpala67 · 06/02/2023 08:51

Police and OPG ad pp have said

AndNowIKnowWhatHappened · 06/02/2023 09:00

Is the POA done in the way that you all have to be in agreement before doing things or can you all do things independently?

AndNowIKnowWhatHappened · 06/02/2023 09:00

Can you afford a financial 'detective' . Not sure what they are called.

fUNNYfACE36 · 06/02/2023 09:08

Please could you clarify when the poa was set up? I do t really understand. It needs to be done when the donor has capacity, do was it set up in December of before that.
I think there is no chance of any cri.inal charges being brought because there is no evidence your dm did not give permission, and she is not fit to give reliable evidence now

ny20005 · 06/02/2023 09:09

Police & raise a fraud claim with the bank

SalaDaeng · 06/02/2023 09:29

Police and social services.

SalaDaeng · 06/02/2023 09:32

Bank wont do anything if your mum gave her the card and PIN. My dad's carer emptied his bank account but the bank said that as he had given her the card and PIN it was with his consent. He was blind and trusted her to do his shopping.

WhatToDoAboutMom · 06/02/2023 09:50

Thanks for all the replies

I’ll try to clarify a few things, but it is all quite confusing.

DM arranged the POA around 10 years ago when she had capacity, and did so through a solicitor, so that’s all above board. I am named in the POA, as all 3 of us were, but I do not have a copy of it. My understanding is that we don’t all need to agree anything (which is a good job because none of us ever agree on anything) but that whichever one of us is dealing with anything can make decisions, but as I say, I haven’t seen the document so I’m only going on what I’ve been told. P has a copy. DM had a copy, but as it was D who cleared out the house it’s unclear where that went.

i have asked P for a copy but one hasn’t been forthcoming so far.

I’m not sure what DM signed to allow P access to the bank in 2020, because DM had capacity at that stage, I was led to believe DM had just signed a letter giving P permission to look at her account, although I struggle to believe a bank would accept that.

Although, with hindsight, perhaps P never went to the bank and just took D’s word for what had happened.

in terms of what was signed in November, I have no idea.
I just received an email from P stating

‘DM has agreed that for the financial aspect of her affairs
the POA is brought into effect and she wishes me to be the main
person dealing with her finances and therefore a strict record of

outgoings from her account(s) will be kept so that both Christine and I have been this morning to the bank and lodged the POA on Mom's records‘

She goes on to say this will take some time, which is presumably why she’s only seeing the accounts now.
But I still don’t really how she is able to just take them the POA unless she can prove DM doesn’t have capacity.

The main issue is that P is only giving info she wants us to know. DM knows she signed something in December but she believed that to be to do with the money from the house sale so I honestly have no clue.

I fully understand that the inheritance is a separate thing and D would likely still inherit, although it sticks in my throat to give her more or DMs money.

I can contact police. But ultimately, I don’t personally have ‘proof’ I only have a list of transactions emailed to me by O.

And as has been pointed out, DM can no longer say whether she willingly gave money or agreed for her card to be used. So the fact that I know my DM wouldn’t have agreed to some of it, won’t matter because I can’t prove it.

I don’t really have an endgame
DM will never get the money back, and if she did it would be of little benefit to her now and likely end up back in Ds pocket in a few years.

I would like D prosecuted because what she has done is wrong, and it’s not just a couple of extra hundred or thousand pound she’s had, is in excess of 40k.
But if we can’t prove it wasn’t given freely she’ll just get away with it. D will no longer visit DM. But this is very upsetting for DM so often when I visit the conversation revolves around D and how upset DM is at no seeing her, how she misses and loves her

And that’s very hard to listen to and bite my tongue knowing what I do.

Ultimately I’d like D to faves consequences for her actions
and I’d like to ensure that what money is left is used properly to give DM the best standard of care.

But, I no longer trust P to do what is in DMs best interests, because it was never in DMs best interests to cover up what D had done years ago and to continue to let her do it.

OP posts:
SheilaFentiman · 06/02/2023 09:54

“I’m not sure what DM signed to allow P access to the bank in 2020, because DM had capacity at that stage, I was led to believe DM had just signed a letter giving P permission to look at her account, although I struggle to believe a bank would accept that.”

This is allowed. My brother can do this for my mum. He can look at the accounts but not do transactions. POA is in place but my mum still has capacity and does her own banking by phone.

gogohmm · 06/02/2023 09:55

Speak to the office of the public guardian/court of protection. This is their area of expertise. They can issue orders to prevent further abuse, investigate potential abuse etc. as a family you can decide whether to proceed to criminal charges if proven

ny20005 · 06/02/2023 09:58

Can you get a copy of poa from the solicitors ?

Bank will investigate but you'd need statements to show all the transactions & loan details.

SheilaFentiman · 06/02/2023 10:09

www.gov.uk/view-lasting-power-of-attorney

SheilaFentiman · 06/02/2023 10:09

Try this to create an account to see the LPA.

SheilaFentiman · 06/02/2023 10:10

But... you should have seen and signed the POA at the time.

SalaDaeng · 06/02/2023 10:17

If your mum is going into care the council and ss will want to audit her financial affairs in minute detail. This could be helpful or not, depending on whether they class the spending as deprivation of assets.

MenopauseSucks · 06/02/2023 10:19

If your mother did the POAs at a solicitors, she might have chosen to have the originals stored in the vaults.
As one of the attorneys you could request a certified copy from them so at least you'd have one yourself.

MrsGhandi · 06/02/2023 10:23

SheilaFentiman · 06/02/2023 10:10

But... you should have seen and signed the POA at the time.

Exactly - you have to sign a POA if you have this power.
Also as has been pointed out a POA can be signed but has to be registered for it to be official.
A POA can be redone at any time.

starpatch · 06/02/2023 10:24

As you have power of attorney yourself you have absolutely no choice but to report this as you can potentially be held accountable yourself.

MenopauseSucks · 06/02/2023 10:28

Oh & I wouldn't trust your sister P as far as I can throw her.
She's already covered once for your niece N her daughter & she's now saying your DM wants her alone to deal with her finances.
The apple not falling far from the tree...

SheilaFentiman · 06/02/2023 10:29

starpatch · 06/02/2023 10:24

As you have power of attorney yourself you have absolutely no choice but to report this as you can potentially be held accountable yourself.

I am not sure this is true. The DM had capacity at the time of the events.