PILs Refusing power of attorney

[Swimswam]

DH and I live in a different country from PILs - 1.5 hr flight.
DHs DB has moved a 5 hour drive from PIL (to get away too I think.)

PIL is a very difficult man. I think he is a narcissist. Has OCD - untreated and never mentioned to him by any family members. Mainly around the home - must be immaculate He is controlling. He is critical to DH from everything from his career to his weight. They have no friends. DH really loves his mum. She is dominated by FIL. But also part of the issue.

DH has had to have therapy because of his DFS behavior. DH had a breakdown but is in a good place now.

They live in a tiny hamlet. MIL doesn’t drive anymore .Won’t move as they will only live in acceptable brand new houses. They have no friends, no social life. They won’t have groceries delivered - as it might touch the floor. No parcels either.

I think it would be a good idea to put a power of attorney- legal and medical in place - in case it is never needed.
DH says his DF will refuse. I think he’s correct.
What will be the consequences of this for us if/when they need care/doctor/hospitals etc?

I am utterly adamant that I will not move back to the Uk to be their carer as I know they will start to dominate our lives. DH will get another all consuming job and I will be expected to care for them - As DPIL did for their PILs
Only in the last 2 years have I been accepted by DFIL - I have been married to DH for 19 years.
Sorry it’s long. But I’m so frustrated it can’t even be a subject of discussion

I our experience it's the finance POA that is the most important. That can be written to be active when needed and not necessarily when someone has lost capacity. DH has one for his mum who is in a care home and can't communicate easily following a stroke. It was applied for but wasn't in place when his dad died and it was 6 months before we could settle bills from her account. So we had to cover FILs funeral costs, the last bills from their home, house clearance costs, MILs clothes, chiropy and hairdresser etc costs for 6 months the before we could be reimbursed.

I think you will just have to let the chaos ensue. You would not be able to put in carers/cleaners/ get work done around the house as likely the FIL would refuse to let them in even if you had POA and could set it up. Sooner or later one of them is likely to end up in hospital or unwell and social services would have to get involved. Make it very clear you will not be helping.

Your best hope is that FIL passes first and MIL may be more amenable to moving and accepting help.

Thanks for all the Feedback. Lots of useful information and things to think about.
My understand is that POA is only invoked if capacity is lost - I and DH would never want to make any decisions for PIL unless they specifically asked us to or they didn’t have capacity. We legally couldn’t exercise the POA before capacity was lost anyway. But I know from other friends this capacity in their parents can be lost very quickly.
I think the best solution is for DH and his DB to agree a united front towards their parents.
DH is not low contact and feels a great obligation towards his parents. Therapy has helped with some boundaries but he loves his parents and has even started to create a ‘oh they are not so bad narrative’
I think I am more objective.

There seems to be some misunderstandings in this thread about what POA means. It's about making decisions for them once they no longer have capacity to do so or have handed it over to you (for financial). Depending on the type of POA. So making financial decisions for THEIR money, it definitely doesn't mean spending your own money on them! The same with care - making decisions about a care home, daily routine etc NOT doing the care for them or taking them to appointments.
www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney

@AndSoFinally I mean they will pay for whatever they will pay for . I can't control the situation. I have tried so hard to but can't
Ss do pay for 24 hour care but probably not for her ..

It's madness but it is what it is .

The problem with that approach is that one parent may cover up the fact that the other has lost mental capacity and ruin their health by caring for them single handedly. Then inevitably the parent acting as carer will die and only then will it become clear that the surviving parent has lost capacity. It is then too late to set up a POA and the only alternative is to undertake the lengthy and costly process of applying for COP guardianship.

This is what happened with DH's DGPs. GM died suddenly of a heart attack and only then did it become apparent that she had been covering up GF's worsening dementia.

That’s true for Health and Welfare. Finance can be set up like that, or it can be set up so it can be used while the donor has capacity. Depends which box you tick.

I have to take her to the dentist,and for glasses and appointments as the home dosnt do that it’s my responsibility as POA No, that’s not true. You have to arrange payment, but you don’t have to take her. Same with all your other examples. PoA is about making decisions. Not about doing work.

If the home isn’t taking people to appointments, they’d be asking you as(apparent) next of kin even without PoA. But if there wasn’t a next of kin, they’d arrange a carer and taxi, and charge for it. That’s what happens for my Dad (for appointments where I don’t need to be there) and I do have PoA.

I’m worried sick as POA the home will expect me to pay the £7000 a month fees. They definitely can’t enforce that. PoA or not, you have no responsibility to pay parent’s fees. So stop worrying about that.

My understand is that POA is only invoked if capacity is lost True for Health and Welfare. Finance can be written either way.

I think this, plus exactly what @Goingforasong said.
I wouldn't waste time even asking.
Ultimately your BIL will get dragged into something at some point down the line. It would be ideal if the two brothers remained friends and support for each other in the coming decade as things go downhill. That's the bit in all this that I'd be putting effort into.
We failed at POA spectacularly and my DF died in an accident while my DM was under section. Everything had to go to court. Everything is hard to unravel but it does sort in the end.

It absolutely is your FiL and MiL interests to set up LPA (lasting power of attorney) whilst they still can

https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney

You can do it by downloading online forms from this government site without a solicitor - it will cost court fees (approx £300) per LPA and per donor (ie. mil and fil) - best to get at least property and finance one . FIL and MIL pay those fees but they are an investment save them far more money in long run.

LPA Health and welfare you can live without but it is helpful if they trust you to make decisions about their care needs. Make sure any LPA applied for if is joint and severally NOT joint , if several of you (Ie siblings) are going to be the power of attorney. Joint is a nightmare - people don't realise that- as often the bank will ask all LPAs to visit the bank initially for each new transaction (change yonDD, getting money out, etc) and most banks won't let you do online banking if more than one POA unless it is joint and severally)Ie POAs can act independently but you all have access and can see what each other has done)
You can manage an LPA from abroad- most banking is online now anyway- if you have access to U.K. bank accounts.

It is FAR more expensive to wait until they've lost financial capacity and go for deputyship ( which is hugely in backlog currently ) - that's all tike waiting with no one having no access to their money, and bills not already in DD going into arrears etc , and costs more. FIL and MIL wouldn't be sensible up let it get to that point.

You can use the LPA finance and property WITH consent of person before they lose financial capacity - Ie if they ask you to but you can't use the health and welfare until they are individually assessed as having lost capacity. You always have to demonstrate you are acting in their best interests, under Mental capacity act 2005 legislation and principles. You can look those up online by googling that U.K. legislation.

Having neither LPA finance dvd property or health and welfare makes you responsible for giving them direct care- only responsible for making best interests decisions on and arranging things such as their paying for repairs snd bills on property and necessities which you can do online and booking contractors , loading with social care agencies for carers or care homes, utilities companies etc once they've accepted your sending in copies of LPA documents to register that you're then legally acting on their behalf.

Liaising not loading

So much can be done virtually via MS teams for attending meetings and assessments to support PILs - hospitals and social care are very good since covid lockdowns at developing procedures to arrange mixed meetings of some people (including theLPAs and other professionals ) online and some in person in a meeting

Sorry mistake court fee is £82 per application (not £300 approx)
Ie MIL and PIL
And per LPA so that's be 2x if they wanted LPA finance and property and LPA health and welfare set up

If they are in means tested benefits you can apply for reduction or exemption in court fees

It's the deputyship court fees that are £371 court fees per application and is the very slow process . That is what you apply for if it's too late , there's is no power of attorney already set up and they've already lost capacity to make a power of attorney or to manage their property or money.
You usually can't get deputyship for health and welfare matters.

Often people end up using solicitors for deputyship applications as they are more complicated to do. So can go into thousands of pounds as will be slow process. And also there's the debts that mount up by not being paid and interest and late fees on those - as I said is far more costly not to plan ahead and set up LPAs at least in finance snd property

Could you call their bluff?

Get sibling and husband to write a letter saying how much work it would be with a long long list of all the responsibilities that DH and brother won’t have to do if parents don’t take out POAs.

Tell them that you’re doing it for clarity and if they have a problem with you not doing it then they need to say now so your DH and brother can assign their time and budget to the it.

Make it sound like it would be hard for you. Make it sound like they’ll be missing out on something.

My mum has capacity, but my brother and I can use our LPA to pay bills and do other admin for her, as she's paralysed after a stroke. That means that banks and similar institutions/ energy companies etc will accept our signatures and communicate with us.

It does not mean that we are responsible for paying things or for any debt of hers, it just means that we have access to her bank accounts in order to pay for things and negotiate on her behalf. And of course we can only use her money in her interests, and because she agreed that arrangement.

"I am utterly adamant that I will not move back to the Uk to be their carer as I know they will start to dominate our lives. DH will get another all consuming job and I will be expected to care for them - As DPIL did for their PILs
Only in the last 2 years have I been accepted by DFIL - I have been married to DH for 19 years."

"DH is not low contact and feels a great obligation towards his parents. Therapy has helped with some boundaries but he loves his parents and has even started to create a ‘oh they are not so bad narrative’
I think I am more objective."

Put PILs to one side for now and deal with your DH. The two of you need to have a serious discussion about his parents and he needs to be crystal clear that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES will you EVER become his parents' carer. His dad didn't even accept you until two years ago? Oof, red flag to cynical me, sounds like maybe his dad 'accepted' you because he's thinking ahead and lining you up as his skivvy.

I don't give a toss that your husband feels a great obligation. Fine and dandy for him. But you are NOT his proxy and you are under no obligation here and you need to hammer this point home to your husband. He can construct his narrative all he wants, if they're not so bad then he can give up his all-consuming job and be the carer if he wants.

Have the conversation and make your feelings, expectations and boundaries very clear to him. Blunt is best.