PILs Refusing power of attorney

[Swimswam]

DH and I live in a different country from PILs - 1.5 hr flight.
DHs DB has moved a 5 hour drive from PIL (to get away too I think.)

PIL is a very difficult man. I think he is a narcissist. Has OCD - untreated and never mentioned to him by any family members. Mainly around the home - must be immaculate He is controlling. He is critical to DH from everything from his career to his weight. They have no friends. DH really loves his mum. She is dominated by FIL. But also part of the issue.

DH has had to have therapy because of his DFS behavior. DH had a breakdown but is in a good place now.

They live in a tiny hamlet. MIL doesn’t drive anymore .Won’t move as they will only live in acceptable brand new houses. They have no friends, no social life. They won’t have groceries delivered - as it might touch the floor. No parcels either.

I think it would be a good idea to put a power of attorney- legal and medical in place - in case it is never needed.
DH says his DF will refuse. I think he’s correct.
What will be the consequences of this for us if/when they need care/doctor/hospitals etc?

I am utterly adamant that I will not move back to the Uk to be their carer as I know they will start to dominate our lives. DH will get another all consuming job and I will be expected to care for them - As DPIL did for their PILs
Only in the last 2 years have I been accepted by DFIL - I have been married to DH for 19 years.
Sorry it’s long. But I’m so frustrated it can’t even be a subject of discussion

Is there any sign at present that they don't have capacity?

That sounds difficult for you but if they need care then social services would be involved and the house would be sold if necessary to pay for it.

No sign at all.
But from speaking to friends with elderly parents it’s easier to have it set up - in case it is ever needed. Rather than wait for it to be needed. Know that we can’t and wouldn’t use it if they still had capacity.
We are only in the Uk 2-3 times a year - teenagers in school.
FIL would never allow cleaners in the house. Never

I am confused!? I didn't mention cleaners?

I’d let the PoA thing go. It sounds like PIL are already difficult and if FIL is likely to be dead against it (and still has capacity) then you’re flogging a dead horse anyway.

Absolutely agree it is easier and cheaper to have it in place. We are having to apply for health POA for MIL and it is an expensive and laborious task.

A friend's FIL is in long term care because they didn't have POA so couldn't make the decision to stop medical intervention.

Your PIL sound incredibly difficult. I think you need to make it clear that you will not be undertaking any kind of care for them to your DH and them. It's a difficult conversation to have but one I have recently had with my parents.

I think that they are not reasonable people therefore there is no point in trying to reason with them. Harsh as it may seem, they are adults who are entitled to make their own decisions and I would just leave them to the consequences of those decisions.

I suspect that you, your DH and his DB could potentially put a lot of time and effort into trying to protect against future problems and the only outcome would be pissing off your FIL. So save your energy.

I don't see why you don't ask about POA and see what they say?

Be difficult for you to manage their finances, if it came to it, from another country though.

The health POA will only ever kick in if capacity is lost, but fiancé can be invoked sooner if they wish it.

I think it would be a good idea to put a power of attorney- legal and medical in place - in case it is never needed.

I am utterly adamant that I will not move back to the Uk to be their carer

Then you should definitely NOT let DH take on POA for his parents. Because its hard to see how he could take all the responsible decisions and judgements that entails, when he's too far away to observe what's going on in their isolated lifestyle . There's no local friend to keep an eye, send DH a heads up that Dad's losing the plot/ unfit to drive/ Mum has a bruise/ they haven't been seen in the village for three days.

Small wonder DPIL won't agree to a POA when the sons are too far distant to do the job and the PILs have no friends. He's being realistic.

Being so meticulous and controlling, it would not be surprising if he's already made other preparations; advance medical directives, funding for private care.

Hi OP. If there is not a POA in place then involved professionals will follow the Mental Capacity Act process. So an MCA assessment will be completed in respect of day, having some home care support if the assessing worker feels there is some doubt about capacity.
If it is deemed that either MIL/FIL lacks capacity then a Best Interest decision will be made at a meeting. You and your H could join via zoom, if you weren’t able to attend in person. Other family members will also be invited.

Any decision, whether health is social care related will be made in conjunction with PIL and family wishes.

If there was concern that your FIL may be controlling the situation, then an independent advocate will be asked to be involved too.

Finances are more tricky. It’s worth reading up about that issue.

I honestly think you would be taking on a huge millstone with PoA.

Also it sounds as if you would find it quite difficult to make decisions for your FIL that really fit with his wishes, given that he's a really difficult man with significant problems.

I wouldn't worry about a PoA until one of them had died. Just now they have got each other to advocate for them so no need for you to get involved. The likelihood of both of them loosing their capacity at the same time should be remote.

Have a chat with your DH. He’s low contact and had therapy.
Make a decision now that that continues. If your PIL won’t help themselves, then you don’t either. That you stay in your own country and manage remotely. Not allowing cleaners or carers or food delivery is going to affect them and say that you are happy with your life her and you are not going back to care for them and you and your children are staying here.
Tell DH he owes them nothing if he’s needed therapy for how they treated him.

Do t get a POA as you become responsible for ALL decisions.

I have full Poa for my mum . She had a stroke in June last year and it's been a shit show since .. you Absolutely do not know what is round the corner . She has lost capacity to make sensible decisions and because of the POA I can make them and override her .

I'm very glad I have it , we put it in place when Dad died 9 years ago and did probate at the same time ..

I would say as there are two it's unlikely it will go shit shaped for both of them quickly so one can make decisions for the other .

And you will never need to be their carer . I have a full time carer live with my Mum at a cost of £90,000 a year and when her money runs out the state will pick up the tab ...

I will never be her carer, I will however make the best decisions to keep her safe .

I would leave your parents to it , they can fend for themselves if they want to .

Also the 'human rights act ' says if they have capacity they can make whatever decisions they see fit and poa wont override that so it's kind of pointless unless capacity is lost in my experience .

Why do you want it?

I don’t think you could actually manage POA from a different country.
i took it on for a relative ,not realising what would be involved
relative took a fall,ended up in hospital,while in hospital got diagnosed with dementia and told she had to move to a rest home
I lived 6 hours away
that was weeks of back and forth taking what she needed in to hospital
thenthe task of selling a full house of furniture'a fullfridge

I don't understand why you want power of attorney? You live in another county and don't want to be heavily involved with them. You can't force them. It's up to them how they decide to live their lives.

@boboshmobo is right, the POA only comes into effect when the person it applies to loses capacity. Even then, each decision is capacity specific. Any professional should still work within the margins of the Mental Capacity Act.

Until then, which of course may never happen, people have the right to make their own decisions, even if we may consider them to be unwise.

Sorry got cut of
then had to sort out solicitor and stop bills ,and cancel direct debits ,with gas and water and electricity and bt phone ..all a nightmare to deal with and bt refused to cut her off and carried on charging her
then I had to find a rest home ,and move her to it ,furniture her new room ,buy her new clothes as she had nothing that fitted
then over the next year move her twice as she deteriorated and needed a nursing home ,all her stuff moved to another rest home ,and I had to move her .i had to pay all the home bills ,and now I’m trying to get social services to take over payment of the home ,she is nearly out of money and social services are not getting back to me ,I’m worried sick as POA the home will expect me to pay the £7000 a month fees.
on top of that ,I have to take her to the dentist,and for glasses and appointments as the home dosnt do that it’s my responsibility as POA .
so had I of lived in another country it would of been absolutely impossible.

Forgot to say ,I obviously had to sell her house to pay for the 3 care homes she lived in .which living 6 hours away was very difficult

And you will never need to be their carer . I have a full time carer live with my Mum at a cost of £90,000 a year and when her money runs out the state will pick up the tab ...

On a like for like basis?! Where do you live? I've never known social services to pay for 24 hour care in someone's own home and direct payments are nothing like £90k a year.

Or do you mean they'll pay for care in a nursing home?

A friend's FIL is in long term care because they didn't have POA so couldn't make the decision to stop medical intervention.

  If the FIL had made their own advance medical directive ,  (lodged with his son) t it could have designated all the circumstances in which FIL refused  medical intervention. 

No need for a POA, any adult (with capacity)  can write their own AMD.

@AndSoFinally, it’s very unlikely that social care would pick up
the whole costing. The person will be assessed and allocated a budget. If the person, or their family, wish for them to have the same service then they will need to fund the costing difference.
Failing this, alternative service would be sought, such as residential care.

If anything, maybe they should be getting a power of attorney for each other in case one of them suddenly loses capacity.

to some PPs - I think there's a misunderstanding of what Power of Attorney actually means.

I believe it means that the person with POA can make decisions, on behalf of the person who has lost capacity.

Where there is a financial affairs POA set up, it means the person with POA can make decisions for the benefit of the person who has lost capacity, using the money belonging to the person who's lost capacity.

However it does NOT mean that the person with POA has to pay nursing home fees (as in an example above) out of their own pocket.

Where there is a health and social care POA set up, it means the person with POA can make decisions relating to these areas - but it does NOT mean that person has to become the carer.