Care homes abroad?

[trippingdaily]

My not so DF was born abroad but emigrated to the UK and has been a UK citizen for 50 years.

He has to go into a care home as he's not able to cope at home (he didn't maintain the house, so it's tricky to run) and he can't afford carers as he didn't save any money at all despite a good job. He only asserts are the former family home.

His plan was to not leave his many children a penny, so when my DM died he ran through her savings/assets (she was a saver, but they had separate bank accounts because my F was financially abusive, as well as other abuse).

I get on ok with him, and I'll help him move to the care home but no plans at all to visit him (I'm not local to him so it would involve me having to stay over night in a hotel and I've no connections to his area as I moved away when I was young).

The care home is £6.5k pm and he is in good health, but frail and beginnings of dementia.

I was thinking of sending him to a care home in his former country as the host would be more like £1k pm. I haven't looked into it yet, it's just a thought, but wondered what the consensus on here was to this idea?

He's been a shit/horrible Dad to me my whole life, but I have supported him the last few years out of duty. If my siblings and I were to inherit anything from the family home, it would make a massive difference to us as we have young families and financially are not very well off.
I'd happily never see my Dad again, but if he did go abroad I would visit him because I'd feel I had that responsibility as I put him there. If he stayed in a UK care home I wouldn't feel that responsibility.

My very loved and treasured grandmother is originally from a European country and has been here a similar amount of time. Diagnosed with dementia about 12 years ago and I have lived and taken care of her for the last 8. We are making the difficult decision to move her to her home country where she wants to be surrounded by people that speak her mother tongue, whilst she is fluent in English (was an English teacher) as the years have gone on she reverts back more to her native language especially if she is distressed. We live very rurally so she doesn’t have much interaction apart from myself and partner outside her day centre 4 days a week. Whilst the cost wasnt the main factor it is significantly cheaper than here and there are less staffing concerns and the home we are thinking of is in her village. It’s a very difficult decision for us but ultimately I believe it is the best thing for her and my mum and I will visit every month.

I think it sounds a really sensible decision.

Just the phrase '£6.5k a month' (I hope that's a typo) would have me considering other options. That's a lifetime's savings every six months, for someone who hasn't saved a penny even though they could have done.

For him, his mother tongue and childhood culture is almost certainly going to be easier all round. Great idea.

You don't say which country you have in mind for abroad.

Yep, care homes in the UK can be £1.5 k a week, week in week out. Should point out the usual - that if you don't have Lasting Power of Attorney in Health and Welfare - and also Finance quite likely - you may not be allowed to do this if you leave it a while, however if he has mental capacity and can make this decision himself then it may be okay. Legally, I don't know if LPA works when someone is abroad, whether it carries legal weight anyhow.

If you put him in a UK care home frankly the chances of being allowed to move him to one abroad - well, it's unlikely they will let you. It depends. If he is self-funding they can actually get in touch with Social Services and they will join forces to stop you, saying it is against his 'Best Interests' - this means, they will do what they want to do and say it is in his Best Interests, it is like waving a badge. Many Social Services in my experience - Surrey, I mean - are wholly corrupt and will side with the care home in all things. As your Dad's house is subsidising Council-funded residents, they may be reluctant to play ball. And if you don't have LPA, you are simply not the decision maker for his care, they are. Not saying this will happen - but even if you do have LPA, the Council - often akin to the Mafia - can do what they please and just act as if you don't.

I'm not saying this worst-case scenario is a given though I'd also say in this case, to be fair, it may even be in his 'best interests' to eat up his savings in a nice UK care home even if he doesn't deserve it, it can all get a bit Crime and Punishment at this point. UK care homes are only loosely regulated under the Conservative Govt - it's into deregulation as a whole, to allow businesses to fleece the unsuspecting public and make a fortune. Is it better elsewhere? I don't know.

This is the only circumstance I'd move back to my home country. To save my family money and to be able to speak the only language I may be able to.
We've recently phoned some private homes back there and what they offered sounded good. And there were some more standard ones that someone from the UK would find horrible (and some even worse but we didn't even look in those).
As long as you visit these places, I think it should be ok.

Thanks for all the responses.
The £6.5k pm wasn't a typo.
We have LPA (health and finances)

He doesn't actually speak his mother tongue (I know that sounds crazy!) because he was brought up and educated speaking English at home/school/socially.
But I assume the care homes will have lots of English speaking staff (but perhaps no the staff directly looking after him).

I think it's a fantasy, but it's just so horrible the thought of all that money disappearing (you can bet your arse the staff at the English care home with be on minimum wage).

What’s his house worth? You’ll have to sell it to fund his care. If he has dementia then I would imagine being somewhere he does’t speak the language would be horrible.

That makes a big difference, OP, not sure what country is it but that wouldn't be fair on him.

@NewspaperTaxis you're incorrect. If he has capacity, and it sounds as though he has, then he can do what he wants. The start of mild dementia doesn't mean you lack capacity to make decisions.

There are loads of older people who are self-funders who move into residential care years before they need to. I wouldn't assess that move as being in their best interest, but unfortunately they rarely see a social worker because they are funding themselves.

OP, you can only act on the LPA. for health and welfare if your df has had a mental.capacity assessment from a professional.

What does your dad think?

Yes, that's true - mild dementia doesn't equal lack of capacity. But it's a slippery slope and not down to the family to diagnose it.

Social workers in Surrey are invisible when it comes to care homes, they enjoy plausible deniability and in my experience no care home had any contact details for local social workers or Safeguarding on any notice board. It also allows them to pull a fast one on unsuspecting families when they show up. I am digressing, but social workers admit no responsibility for your parents if they are self-funding - a so-called safeguarding head [EDITED BY MNHQ TO REMOVE NAME] said as much to me in person, but they can and do intervene negatively to target a family they deem as whistleblowers or critical of the care home, they have and enjoy negative power, power without responsibility you might say.

They are emboldened if they find the family doesn't have LPA in Health and Welfare.

You can't ship him abroad to a country where he doesn't speak the language and he has the start of dementia on top. Come on. You know you can't. Not only can't you do that legally without his consent, it's just ... wrong.
I'm in the middle of putting my mum in a care home and the costs are horrendous. But you can get nice homes for a lot less than 1600pw. I suggest you take a weekend and go round and visit some.

Erm he does speak the language!

No he doesn't. OP had said ...

He doesn't actually speak his mother tongue

OP are you sure the full cost of care in this other country would be £1k?

Is it fully private, or any way funded or subsidised by the government - if so I'm just putting it out there that there may be different costs if he is classed as a non resident, something to consider.

Other than that, I would say you would have a hard time carrying out this plan unless you had power of attorney, he is still legally able to make decisions for himself with early stage dementia.

No you can’t ‘send him’ to a care home abroad so that you can inherit more money that’s abuse, especially as you want to send him somewhere that he doesn’t even speak the language. It’s your dads decision not yours. Unless he has extremely complex needs and requires 1 to 1 care I’m not sure what home you’re looking at that will be 6.5k a month. But ultimately it’s your dads money to spend that much if he’s like to go there. He might be wiser chooser somewhere less expensive so that his money lasts longer or he might have to change care homes. Has he had an assessment to have carers provided by the council in his own home?

You may not have the legal option to proceed with a plan like that. Does he have the legal right to return to his country of origin? Would he have access to whatever health care system safety net is in place there for seniors? What would happen if he did run through all his money even with the lower fees, who would cover his care home fees then? He hasn’t paid into the system in that country, do you think they will be happy to pick up his bill?

@NewspaperTaxis I'm very sorry you've had such a negative experience. I can't comment for Surrey, but in my LA we actively encourage older people to set up LPAs. It's a nightmare for families if there isn't an LPA, especially for self-funders.

He might not have been a great dad but to ship him off to a country where he hasn't lived for 50 years and doesn't speak the language because you want to inherit his money is cruel and greedy. It is his money to spend as he pleases. If he only has the start of dementias he should be able to make choices for himself about where he stays. You can't 'send' him anywhere without his authority. I think you need to accept you may not get any inheritance and help him to get settled into a decent care home of his choosing. Then you can leave him to it. You have no obligation to visit him if you don't want to.

There'd almost certainly be a social care investigation into any family "shipping" a vulnerable person abroad. And just because PoA is in place doesn't mean there can't be a deprivation of assets investigation
Quite rightly in this case.

Aside from the fact that even if the man is still a national of his birth country, he may not be entitled to live there any longer.

you/should approach social services. If they consider he has a need for care to keep him safe/do the basics of life; then he could get funded care at home. Primary property is not taken into account when means testing for care at home. Also in this country he could potentially get first 12 wks funded in a care home (but only if/when he has a true need for 24 hour care) and if/when the money from his house runs out they could fund a care home placement.
if he’s abroad when his money runs out then it would depend on what the system is there.

i wouldn’t arrange care without speaking to the local authority first for advice about options. Not good to go straight to a care home if care at home would suffice at this point. He could also get attendance allowance if he doesn’t already.

I think the main point people are missing if that you’ve dismissed care at home because he doesn’t have money for it, but if he has a property but no savings, he could get care at home paid for by social services (with a contribution from him based on income and capital but not his main house) if they agree there’s a need there.

If he has a house then he does have money. He will have to sell it to fund the home. That's what my FIL had to do. He was completely unable to live alone but the LA wouldn't fully fund him moving to a home as he had sufficient funds. He did get a contribution though.

I know, that’s the case for a care home, but not carers coming into his home. OP said he couldn’t do that as no money for it.
on a needs basis it’s unusual for someone to need no care then straight to 24hr care in a home. Normally there’s a period when caters visiting 1-4 times a day is sufficient and the person can stay at home.
i was just explaining that this can be funded (based on need) as the main residential property isn’t taken into account for home based care.

Let's assume your father is on board with this, you'd have to check the rules in his motherland to know if it is even an option. I know I can't ship my parents back to their motherland (even if they want it) because the rules for social security mean that they have to have contributed towards it - and they haven't due to leaving the motherland early in adulthood.

In any case, your father should have the say where he lives out his final years.

He sounds like he has capacity do you (or anyone else) cannot send him anywhere. It’s up to him where he lives.

Even with LPA you can't just move him anywhere in the world to save money.

If he doesn't have savings and needs carers in his home the local authority can fund this.

What does he want to do?

You could also remove your own POA powers, I think there's a form you can send to the office of the public guardian if you don't want to be involved.