Court of Protection - any experiences?

[rhetorician]

So my mum is 88 and clearly has dementia, although we've no diagnosis. She was admitted to hospital last Tuesday (Sainsbo delivery man called ambulance - hero) after a fall (we think). This is her 4th admission in about a year - all fall related. Each time they say she has capacity, discharge her with a care package which she dismisses. Anyhow, this time there seems to be clear consensus that she is not safe to be at home without support - finally (GP saw her in July, thought she was fine; social care team saw her in August, nothing to see here - I had just been home for the weekend, so house was orderly etc).

Anyway, all that aside, they won't discharge her until she agrees to care, and she won't, so they are going to do a capacity assessment next week, which will then (assuming they decide she cannot make her own decisions) open the way to my making an application to become a court appointed deputy (she wouldn't agree to POA even though I raised the issue repeatedly from her 80th birthday on). Does anyone have any experience of how long this takes or what is involved? I assume it's straightforward - I am her only child - actually only living relative - so no-one else would have an interest in her affairs.

This is all the more difficult because I don't live in the UK (a flight away) and am trying to manage all this around my job, partner's job and my kids.

No experience but that does sound incredibly difficult

I hope someone comes along soon who can answer your questions.

Thank you. I've had more fun periods in my life, that's for sure!

I've seen CoP applied for where I work a few years ago.

It took months to get (& this was before covid) so I would think it takes longer at the moment and cost the person applying a few thousand pounds as well.

Good luck hope it goes smoothly for you.

there are huge delays at the COP at the moment so don't expect anything to be sorted quickly (sorry).

assuming you are only applying for financial deputyship what is there about her finances that you are envisaging may require more support before the COP can grant deputyship?

how is she currently paying for her sainsburys deliveries?

I also think it could take awhile I’m afraid.

I think after the capacity assessment (which will be targeted questions relatiing to her particular situation) there needs to be a best interests meeting of the different professionals. I wonder if they would need to go down the deprivation of liberty route if they don’t want her to leave hospital?

it sounds very difficult and I hope someone who is certain can help. Apologies if what I’ve said is incorrect.

Nothing helpful to say but they are a complete pain in the arse to deal with and slow to respond.

I am applying for Deputyship for my stepfather at the moment via a solicitor. It’s going to cost approx £1500 for court and solicitor fees. I did look at applying myself but it’s very complex so decided to appoint the solicitor. I’m glad I did. Currently the backlog is taking about 6 months to get through. It took 4 weeks to get the mental health nurse to visit my SF in his care home and complete his paperwork. That’s just the start of it.

Just realised you don’t actually live in the UK. What do you hope to gain by your application for Deputyship? I’m not sure how you could manage her affairs if you’re not in the country.

@Soontobe60 well there's no one else to do it! And if she doesn't have capacity then someone needs to make financial decisions, eg paying for care given that she isn't willing to?

@hatgirl I do those, using her bank card

This is all a bit depressing: I really don't know what I'm supposed to do?

@Soontobe60 would not being resident in the uk be grounds for them to refuse to appoint me?

We had to do this for my father about 8-9 years ago. Similar circumstances to you: he clearly had dementia, refused any help, wouldn't give my DB or me POA. Neither of us lived nearby so it took several police visits (called by the neighbours), hospital stays and finally a serious fall before the doctors decided he did not have capacity.

Applying to COP took 6 months although the care home we found him was willing to wait that long for the fees (he didn't qualify for NHS funding). I could be wrong but I think you can also pay the legal fees from the person's remaining funds (if they have them) once the deputy ship is granted.

@lifesnotaspectatorsport thank you, that's helpful. All the medical staff I've spoken to this time seem to agree that her cognition is impaired. So that's a start at least.

@rhetorician If the medical team decide she isn't safe to be at home, she will probably stay in hospital until they find a suitable care package or home for her. It sounds like she needs full time care so I would guess a care home is most likely.

If that does happen, you may not get much choice on the placement so you may want to plan a visit back to look at suitable homes, especially if you would be going private. Our dad was moved into a pretty grim place to be honest and we arranged for him to be moved into a new one.

lots of people don't have lasting power of attorney in place and not everyone has family to do it either.

regards paying for care if she lacks capacity the local authority will make a best interests decision in consultation with you that she needs care and that the care needs to be paid for.

they will then ask you/her if they can take that by direct debit or if you will pay bills as they come in and you can 'assist' your mum to set this direct debit up, or pay the monthly bills the same way I assume you are already paying bills for her. They will generally turn a bit of a blind eye to how exactly that happens without LPOA in place unless they have other concerns about you accessing her card.

So that will all happen when it needs to happen and probably before you are able to get the POA in place anyway by the sounds of things.

equally if you decide you want no part in her finances the local authority will take that over too, at a cost to your mum.

@lifesnotaspectatorsport it sounds like the plan is to discharge her home with 4x/day carers and see how that goes. But team might make different decision when capacity assessment has been made. But looks like I'm in for at least 6 rocky months (this situation has been going on for 18 months+ but has escalated this year)

Not at all. You can be a deputy even if you live in a different country. You can use a solicitor if you prefer but the forms are easy to complete yourself. As previous have said there are delays with the courts at the moment so the sooner you start the application the better.

You’re correct - the cost is taken from their funds once it’s granted.

@hatgirl yes, I have access to her bank account anyway, but would probably want to take some different decisions about her affairs if she is going into residential care. But could manage to set up direct debits if needed (though she always hated them so hardly honouring her wishes). Just in a waiting game at the moment

If someone is deemed to no longer have capacity and a DOLS assessment has been carried out, the finance team at the LA absolutely cannot ask anyone else who does not have either Financial POA or Deputyship to manage the persons money from the point the DOLS comes into effect. The exception to this is that a representative can apply to the DWP to have the person’s state pension paid to their account which can then go towards the persons care home fees. I have just done this with my SF. I am still waiting for the LA finance team to complete his financial assessment to determine what exactly he has to pay.
OP, if your DM is going to be self funding, the Care Home may look at possibly putting a charge against her house / savings which will be a debt against her estate once she dies. The bit I said about not living in this country is because on the COP application form you have to declare how you will manage their money and how often you will visit them.

@Soontobe60 thanks, that's really helpful. I current,y visit her every three weeks and until this most recent hospitalisation spoke to her multiple times a day on the phone. If she were to have adequate levels of care I'd say I'd visit every 6 weeks or so, depending on other obligations

As a social worker I have been involved in court of protection etc.

the hospital social worker will complete an assessment which will be very specific around your mums care and support needs. This is using the acid test if your mum is deemed to have capacity she will be able to return home without care in place. If however she is deemed not to have capacity then the next legal step would be a best interest meeting. This would then be a decision as to if it’s in her best interest to have any care at home? What level of care is needed? Or what other options are available.

if the package of care is not 24/7 and no electronic support equipment it would not require a DOLs to be in place and wouldn’t always go to court of protection.

If care is required then a financial assessment will be completed. A separate financial capacity assessment would be completed. Many people who lack capacity around care needs remain able to manage Finances.

As your mum has no formal diagnosis it would be hard to get a deputyship and you would need to be in the Uk as well to apply for this. If a family friend were in the UK they might be able to apply if it comes up the stage your mum is unable to understand her financial needs. This would involve making an application by a uk person and having evidence of a capacity assessment / professional confirmation of this alongside a formal diagnosis of a condition that will have a longstanding disturbance of mind or brain.

@Absc thank you. The residency thing is going to be a problem - I haven't lived in the uk for 28 years, and don't know anyone I could ask to do this. All my mother's friends are dead or themselves very elderly...

If someone is deemed to no longer have capacity and a DOLS assessment has been carried out, the finance team at the LA absolutely cannot ask anyone else who does not have either Financial POA or Deputyship to manage the persons money from the point the DOLS comes into effect. The exception to this is that a representative can apply to the DWP to have the person’s state pension paid to their account which can then go towards the persons care home fees

The DoLs assessment has absolutely zilch to do with finances. Nothing.

You are correct that they can't formally ask a person without LPOA to take over the management of the finances and make big financial decisions without authority.

However, having a lack of capacity around your care needs can be completely separate to capacity around the management of finances and if OPs mum is asked if she is happy for OP to continue to pay bills on her behalf and she can demonstrate enough understanding of what that means to give permission for that to happen then that is sufficient in the interim until the deputyship can be arranged.

many people even when they lack capacity or insight in some aspects of their lives are familiar enough with the concept of paying bills that they are able to consent to someone assisting them to pay a bill on their behalf.

@hatgirl yes, I think she'd be happy for me to do this for her

@rhetorician sorry to be the bearer of bad news but applying for Deputyship is an incredibly long winded process.
It took long enough, then covid…. Etc. You can imagine.
I started the process in august 2020, and finally received the sealed order in dec 2021. On the same day my mother died if you can believe it.
(The court had actually granted the order in June 21 but took 6 months to process the paperwork which gives you an idea of what you’re dealing with)

It was a nightmare for finances, but made little difference to the care mum received (I mean it didn’t impact her negatively, just me). I was able to finally pay all the bills out of the estate eventually.