Worst case scenarios please for no lasting power of attorney and dementia/stroke

[Ruralbliss]

I previously posted that my 77 year old mum who is illogical, stubborn and anti-admin at the best of times is becoming increasingly odd and frail/doddery.
She took up smoking fags in the covid pandemic despite having a weak asthmatic chest all her life as an example of her oddness and not doing sensible things. She also has osteoporosis and has sat on the sofa for at least 30 years doing little more than watching rolling news & doing the crossword.

As expected her reaction to my gently enquiring as to whether she had or would consider putting in place lasting power of attorney was met with a firm No thank you and a shut down of the discussion. I pointed out what a tricky situation it might be if she had a stroke but no.

She did however confirm she has made a will which is a change of position from the last time we spoke of such things but couldn't recall the solicitor. Said my brother has a copy. I'll be verifying this later.

She has started to say some stranger than usual things of late which I have been noting in the back of my diary so could be the thin end of a dementia shaped wedge.

My question is this - if she did develop dementia and failed to nominate anyone for LAP then what might be the repercussions for her in terms of worst case scenarios?
She owns her own house outright and has a load of cash in savings having downsized from a lucrative house sale last year.

My best guess is that if she wanted private care but wasn't able to organise or pay then it couldn't be provided.

Any clues gratefully received.

I'm inclined to let her shirking these important actions for no real reason other than she can't be bothered and is in denial as to her age/state as health to 'enjoy' (wrong word) the fallout of not having a Plan B if/when the shit hits the fan. I'll be muttering told you so but also will be the one dealing with the mess as live down the road from her with my brother 3 hours away.

I'm not mad keen on doing anything further for her such as trying to get her to see doctors for a health check. I mow her lawn, get her prescriptions and groceries and include her on nice days out etc but she's always not been that keen on me, chucked me out when I was 17, always favoured my feckless brother etc

I'm now going to get my own LPA set up with 19 yr old offspring and trusted SIL as a team.

Hi I had an lpa for my dad but from a health and welfare point of view, if she was deemed as not back having mental capacity, you wouldn’t be able to choose what care facility she went to also from a financial point of view any spending from her accounts would need to be approved by the court of protection. Hope that helps a bit.

Sorry don’t know where the random back came from in my post!

If there is no LPA in place and someone is deemed not to have capacity then you can apply to the courts for a Deputyship, which is like a LPA but done retrospectively.

One scenario would be that she loses capacity and neglects herself/ property. Eventually her local Council’s social work team would become aware either by members of the public/ neighbours/ police referring her to them.

If she needed care and didn't have the mental capacity to agree to pay and make the payments then firstly the local authority (and in rare cases the NHS) would make a 'best interests decision' that she needed care and that she needed to pay for it.

The local authority would then seek to apply to the court of protection (COP) for someone to be made a deputy. They would look to suitable family members first to be this deputy, or if no one was willing or able to do it they would ask the COP to appoint someone as deputy - usually a solicitor. The solicitor would also be paid out of the person's funds for this.

Care would still be provided whilst these applications were being made and the bill paid by the deputy out of the person's funds when they are finally appointed (or out of their estate if they pass away - whichever comes first).

That is officially what happens.

In reality many families manage to access their family members funds to pay the bills without deputyship /lpoa in place and the local authority turns a blind eye unless they have concerns that they are taking money they shouldn't. These days families have already been supporting elderly parents via online banking / direct debits/ joint bank accounts before they lose capacity and just continue with that.

Thanks all!

My bro just confirmed my mum does have a will and will email me a copy. He tactfully said 'I hate to say this but maybe she'd be more receptive to the idea of I discussed it with her...' (I agreed but we laughed and said maybe today not best day to broach the subject)

I'll just keep logging anything odd she does and keep my brother updated.

Having gone through this with my elderly parents (divorced years ago) am I allowed to say I am heartily sick of the older generation running rings round us and refusing to do anything reasonable or sensible.

My good friend is being run ragged by her parents who refuse to have carers in and want her to do their cleaning, decorating and various errands every day. Phone calls nightly, lost remote control. Feeling a bit hungry and could she come over and doing them a bit of tea and toast….

She thought it was because they were being stingy with their money but has recently found out that despite being offered a considerable amount of free help they refused saying that their daughter did it all. Funny - they never mentioned it to her!

@stratforduponavon I agree. It took me years of persuasion to get my mother to agree to sign a POA. I arranged everything all the people needing to be there (witnesses certificate provider etc) and finally got it all signed. I checked and copied the forms, paid the fees and sent recorded delivery all during the pandemic. It was really hard going.
At the final hurdle she received the letter confirming it and she wrote back, objecting to it.

Now she's in the hands of social services. They're applying for deputyship and asked me if I wanted to be the deputy. No thanks I said.

I do what I can for her but it's limited now.

Short term would she let you have third party access to her bank account so you can pay for her groceries etc? If she does lose capacity then at least you'd be able to pay for stuff. (Long shot I know). Otherwise court of guardianship, which is not always a fast process. She does understand financial lpa can only be used if she has lost capacity or if she explicitly gives you permission?

Court of Protection is a lot slower and far more expensive than LPAs.

Myself and my brother had this issue. We could see a problem with my Dads health, he had been diagnosed with Parkinsons. There were other signs that we were just not dealing with Parkinsons. He owned own house and had savings also. We kept asking him to do LPA's but he kept refusing. In the end my brother said 'Dad, what if something happens here and we can't look after your best interests, what are you going to do?' It was as if a light blub went off and he signed the paperwork. A week or so later he didn't know where his bathroom was in his house! He declined rapidly, ended up going into care straight from hospital. Them LPA's were a blessing on our part, at least we could take care of his finances easily to start paying for the care he needed.

She does understand financial lpa can only be used if she has lost capacity or if she explicitly gives you permission?

There is a tick box on the financial LPA to say it can start immediately, unlike the health one which only starts when capacity is lost.

@system2319 you were fortunate he had that lightbulb moment.

I said all this to my mother but she made her choice and now has to deal with the consequences.

It still makes me angry as I have agencies calling me left right and centre assuming that I will take responsibility for all her issues. I do some, but I have my own life and frankly I'm not prepared to sacrifice it for her when she couldn't do something to help me help her.

Took over 18 months to get the Deputyship for my mum. She had died by the time I received the sealed court order.
the reality was that I dealt with the council for care home fees and a charge was put on the estate (the house basically) and all the money was paid after the house was sold.
A complete nightmare though. You have my total sympathies

@OhamIreally - yes we also arranged for the LPA's through the pandemic. Confirmation letters didn't arrive till he was admitted to hospital. His own Mom who passed away about 6 years ago had a similar diagnosis to my Dad and I think he just thought back to them times and what he and his sibling went through. He still asks to go home, I have never told him that his house and contents were sold to pay for his needs. It is so difficult as I can see what Dad was saying 'I worked hard for this house and the money that is in the bank - and it's mine'.

I'm sorry that you have been left with dealing with the consequences of your Mom objecting.

@OhamIreally I think I remember you posting about this at the time - didn’t you have another username? Absolutely would be the camel-breaking straw.
I remember also someone who applied for both Welfare and financial LPA during pandemic but had only sent payment for one and only found out after waiting about a year.
@stratforduponavon totally share your view

Perhaps things have changed in the last five years, but when my aunt went into care after a stroke, the medics , the social worker and the care home just assumed that I was the ‘right person’ to take the decisions, make the arrangements etc because I was the next of kin, and had been helping her with her finances etc before.
everyone who dislikes their relatives and resents helping them, though, I expect could just walk away.

I had a similar problem with my DM, increasingly forgetful, especially about paying bills (hah!) until she rang in a panic one day saying she'd got a court summons over an unpaid water bill. It turned out she hadn't paid it for over two years!
I sorted it that day over the phone but it was a wake-up call and she realised she had to do something about her memory. We set up direct debits for everything and I went with her to her bank (with passport/id) where with her permission I was added to her account as a named individual who could use it on her behalf, eg write and sign cheques (which she still did😫) and talk to the bank about managing her finances.
Once we'd done that and she saw how much easier it made everything for her she was happy to sign an LPA. When you say the magic words, "We have an LPA", dealing with Social Services, GP, hospitals, banks, the council etc is so, so much easier.
It's quite possible your DM's situation could well reach a similar crisis or crunch point and she sees that she not only needs your help then but in the future too.
I hope so otherwise it will get extremely expensive for her - the Court of Protection can charge a five figure fee each year. Or it appoints a guardian who also charges but does sweet FA in return.

@Mum5net yes I did post about it and you were very helpful on that thread as I see you being to others also.

It took weeks before I could bear to speak to her. I visit and help where I can now but I have stronger boundaries with her as a result of her actions and I resist getting pulled in.

OP I do hope you can get something in place otherwise it's like watching a slow motion car crash.

Can people tell me what's usual, my dad is 78 with the start of dementia and profoundly deaf. His younger, fitter wife has LPA as he does for her.

Is it only when the spouse dies that you look to getting LPA given to a child?

Would strongly suggest always having someone a generation down with lpa. A friend's solicitor advised that she and her dh only needed mutual lpas. He was diagnosed with dementia and had to go into a home and she died within a few weeks of his diagnosis. Their relatives had a nightmare (they had no children but wider family were close) but it was a useful cash generation scheme for the solicitors who billed the estate for anything and everything.

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen
Everyone who dislikes their relatives and resents helping them, though, I expect could just walk away.

Many on this board are here because their relative has failed to future proof.Helping and caring is made 100 times more difficult if you have gently been asking that person for a number of years to consider POA and they have deemed the whole issue irrelevant or unnecessary to their situation.
Without POA you can’t cancel utilities, you can’t insure, you can’t talk to health professionals. It adds layer upon layer of additional of red tape. To the person doing the caring it feels like the person who is in decline has no regard for their welfare or why else would they put them through the added hoop jumping?
And yes, it has changed significantly in five years...Dealing with the OPG in Scotland is like dealing with the DVLA. Months and months can go by without a response. I think the Court of Protection is similar.
I’m very glad it worked out so well for you and your DA.
However, it’s one of the toughest gigs going if you have to experience what some have been through.

@OhamIreally I can totally imagine your frustration and fury and ultimately your refusal to get involved in all things as would totally be the sort of nonsense my mum would create.

I've instantly distanced myself after the (as expected) challenging chat about sensible LPA and her stubborn refusal to discuss like a grown up (mind you she can't even discuss 'shall we go to see the Elvis film when it comes out' or chat about dates further away than a few days without becoming overwhelmed and stressed - IMO possible further indications that things are changing with her)

Before I was offering to clean/mow lawn and pick up bits from the supermarket but now I'm feeling a bit shirty and 'fine' sort yourself out then.

I got the will from my brother and did a massive eye roll as she's put me down as an executor but not had the good grace to mention or ask me if this is ok. Also another eye roll as I was right she only made a will last year when she sold her house for huge profit and no doubt the solicitors bent her arm about it.

This is going to be interesting. I might get local care agency to leaflet her about home help so that is already in place before she desperately needs it but too far gone to arrange herself and I don't have any powers (of attorney).

@system2319 wow that was just in the knick of time for you and your dad.

That's what I need my brother to do. Spell out the reason how it covers worst case scenarios with vital contingency and the scenarios are not at all far fetch (probability high that they will occur).

I don't know why she doesn't listen to me or sees me as a scammer. Maybe because I once nicked some money from her purse as a 12 year old. Fair enough but I'm in my fifties now, have a solid professional career, raised three kids and generally navigate life and my own affairs quite well.

Her loss ultimately as @OhamIreally situation I will not be bending over to right her wrongs (refusal to put in place basic provisions) if the shit hits the fan. I won't. I'm stubbornly thinking she can reap what she is sowing...

@Ruralbliss the thing is you can see these things coming down the line.

Like you, I wanted to be ready, to have things lined up.

In the event I wasted 5 years banging my head against a brick wall. Hindsight tells me it was always going to end up like this (in fact not even hindsight- foresight told me!!)