Is there a way to get mil sectioned?

[Lisad1231981]

My MiL has always been very difficult. She would fall out with dh and his brother regularly. She shouts and screams down the phone, swears at them a sends vile letters and dm's.

Our children are not allowed to add her on any social media and mainly we keep a distance. We didn't see her for years but after fil was put in a hone by ss because he has dementia and she wasn't caring for him, we go a couple times a year (mainly to see him although he has no idea who we are)

Anyhow, her mental health has taken a huge decline recently and she keeps calling 999, the ambulance daily but also refuses to go to GP so he can assess her.
She messages and phones my husband saying she's dying. We know it's the anxiety making her panic. She has been checked over by medical many many times.
She phones all hours and won't listen to reason. We would like her to have her mental health assessed but she won't let the GP do this. We just don't know what to do anymore.
We aren't local so can't pop in and check on her. She lives in middle of near where. She has no neighbors to help because she has been vile to all of them too. She has no family support for same reason.
I have her GPs number and plan to call tomorrow. They won't be able to tell me anything but can I ask for them to section her for her assessment so she can get some help? She was so hysterical early hours of the morning the ambulance took her to A&E because they couldn't get sense out of her.
Help.

Op: my advice? Step away. Have NOTHING to do with this and caution your dh about his brothers intentions.

This Mind page includes info on debt taken out when capacity has been lost due to a mental illness.

Im afraid I would approach the Court of Protection. Or you might ask advice from the hospital social worker on whether an advocate might be appointed who could work with her and build a relationship?

If fil has lost capacity then the court of protection will be involved. If mil is unfit too then she may be sectioned 3 which will mean free aftercare. She may return with help or go into care, the house will need to be sold anyway. The house is not up for grabs, no solicitor will agree to this.

You can't just transfer her home into your DH and his brothers name as no-one has POA! How is FILs nursing home being paid for? If the house is eventually sold then the funds will go towards PIL and MIL care. "Deprivation of assets" by attempting transfer will be looked upon very badly

I agree about the house, I don't think it can just be signed over, but you could find out from a solicitor about contacting the catalogues and credit card companies to start the process of letting them know your mil can't pay them back. Hope it all works out for all of you, especially your fil and mil.

As others have said the house can't be transferred into someone else's name as the owner no longer has capacity. The Court of Protection will have to deal with it now which will take months. Sorry dementors horrible.

There is no way you can get the house signed over to you in these circumstances. IMHO. You could contact Age UK to see if they can suggest the best way forward in dealing with this really difficult situation.

@SunshinePie

Tbh I’ve seen this happen a lot. Eventually A&E and psychiatrists will get fed up of seeing her and section her for treatment, usually 4 weeks intensive therapy and assessment. Funds are so scare they only save them for those most in need (aka those making the most noise). She will get put on meds, and after 4 weeks they should have worked enough that she can be released. Then it’s hoping she stays on them! Dunno if that’s reassuring or not.

I hold LPA for an elderly relative. When she developed dementia A&E, social services, GP, police, ambulance services dealt with their frustration by phoning me and demanding I sort it out.

If she's elderly they don't want to know in my experience. I had no help. no support. In the end we engaged a private social worker who assessed her and got her into a home, against her will, and arranged for a deprivation of liberty order so she could be detained. It meant no cost to the NHS.

If she is sectioned or put in a home the house will be sold and used for care home fees for FIL and possibly her. If the idea is to transfer the house into someone elses name to avoid paying it won't work and they can't transfer it anyway if they don't have POA.

The Alzheimer's Society would be the best Charity to contact and adult social services. Good Luck.

You will need capacity assessments completed to prove they cannot manage their own finances and you'll need to apply through the court of protection.

Do not let DH just sign the house into his name, that is asking for all sorts of legal shit to hit the fan

Why does your DH and BIL want the house signed over?

Ultimately your inlaws need decent care and their home will pay for that.

It might be worth getting in touch with fil carehome manager to ask if he has had a capacity assessment and tell them about mil and that bil is thinking about the house. They need to be alerted in case bil turns up with some palerwork and a gullible solicitor.

If you do not have POA the Court of Protection ( from experience ) is the next step but this is quite onerous - you cannot have the house put into other people's names to "save the money" - As I believe you can keep the house if there is a dependent living there but not if it is to save the cost of the house to avoid care home fees - but others obviously are well up on this.

@ChiswickFlo

You can't "sign over" a house. It's Deprivation of assets. That will be looked on VERY dimly by the LA and SS. The home will need to be sold anyway if she is deemed not to have capacity and I imagine that will mean they won't be as to go after her for the CC fraud.

You can’t “sign over” a house without the permission of the owner or their attorney because it’s theft, and would involve fraud in the actual doing of it.

Thank you for all the replies. Mil still in hospital being assessed but they aren't telling us anything much.
As for the house, something to do with the council saying they will take possession of the house and give MiL a council flat? Then money will go into a trust to cover fil care home fees. But also that we could do something similar. I really don't want anything to do with it and neither does dh.
The house is in fil name, mil currently has Control of paying the extra care home fees but it appears that hasn't been happening either.
Both me and Dh work all week, and a dash there is 7hours on a Friday night and same back so not easy to pop down for a weekend. We also have our own kids and we look after my parents too.
They live in Wales, not sure if that makes a difference to the laws around home transfers.

Sounds promising. The Council could take a ‘charge’ over FIL house which I understand to be partial ownership up to the amount of all his care home costs. So the legal dept at the Council draws up a legal order to push this through. As MIL is homeless in this instance and has no assets they look as if they are making suitable provision for her. I don’t understand the part about you and DH setting up a trust. ‘Top up’ is the name normally given to the extra contribution that are made towards the cost of care, in this case by MIL. By contributing say £50 a week, FIL can stay in a more expensive care home than he may have done otherwise. Others who know more will maybe help you out here, but I don’t think the top up amount can come from the house sale.

It's hard to know because it's all coming via SiL and BIL. They are also saying we should make the journey there (7 hours away) but DH says that there is no reason why he can't join meetings ect from here and then go down when we are physically needed to be there.
It's all very confusing. But mil is staying on the mental health ward for a few more days and there is now a social worker. She has stopped the messages and phone calls (I assume as she has no access to her phone and laptop).
Thank you to everyone for advice. What kind of solicitor should we seek out? We still have to sort out mil debts but I'm not sure what we can do as again, we have no poa

I think I would talk to the Age UK helpline before a solicitor.

I agree @PermanentTemporary. Age Concern will have more experience of this than others.
No lawyer for now as what can they do?
And definitely don’t drive seven hours there and seven hours back for a meeting with Bil that can be done on FaceTime. Realistically, only the social workers can move things forward as there is no POA held. Personally, I’d just get on with my life until the social worker suggests tasks that the family needs to do to BIL. The SW will probably prefer only one family contact but much of the communication will be via email so encourage BIL to forward to your DH. But I think you have to let it all play out and give SW time to put things in place. MiL’s welfare is in their hands right now. They may find her temporary respite accommodation until they find her a new permanent place. It’s possible she is being given medication which might take about four weeks to have any noticeable effect. Only after they have observed her will a new route emerge.
Enjoy the quiet spell knowing they are both safe and cared for for now

Update. Social worker has called, there is a meeting on Wednesday. They have sent dh a teams link and we will both be there.
Mil remains on the ward and appears to be doing ok.

@Jijithecat

You can ask CAMHS for a mental health assessment, but even in the event that she were sectioned she can appeal it or it might just be for a few days, so it's not necessarily the answer to the problem.

I think the GP is probably a good place to start. You might also want to keep a log to remind you if there has been any activity that concerns you.

MIND is a good place to look for advice.
www.mind.org.uk

CAMHs is for children and adolescents!

There is absolutely no way you can have the house ownership changed. The only way to do this is very long, convoluted and expensive, requiring a great deal of legal work. So forget that idea.
What a shame that your dh can’t or won’t or is being stopped from visiting his very ill mother and father.

@Lisad1231981 Well done the social work team. Enjoy the respite while you can.

@Soontobe60

There is absolutely no way you can have the house ownership changed. The only way to do this is very long, convoluted and expensive, requiring a great deal of legal work. So forget that idea. What a shame that your dh can’t or won’t or is being stopped from visiting his very ill mother and father.

He isn't being stopped, he can see her if he wanted but we are 7 hours drive away. If we headed up there on a Friday after work, we would have Saturday there and then a 7 hour drive back on Sunday. I can't easily take time off, neither can he and we have 2 children of our own who have Sen. If she was very unwell physically of course we would go, we have done it a number of times previously. I am not touching the house, after all the messages on here it's clear that the best thing to do is leave it to the council. Mil is safe and happy right now, so feeling a lot calmer. Professionals seem happy enough to do the meetings online. Thank you everyone

Having lost my mum very unexpectedly 3 weeks ago, I speak from experience that an elderly person doesn’t need to be on deaths door to be close to death.