Power of Attorney -how it works in practice

[MauvishMaude]

Hello Knowledgeable Children Of Oldies

I am going through some fairly painful conversations with my remaining parent. I am pretty clued up on what a POA is, and how to get one, as am currently on the 3rd or 4th draft with aforementioned parent.

What I don't actually really know is, how does it work IRL? At the moment, it is the financial one I am particularly concerned with.

As far as I can see, nothing financial related would need attention urgently? For example, it would be possible to speak to a bank and explain the scenario and then sort out what was required, and that could happen over a period of 5-10 days, rather than within 24 hours.

I'm probably not explaining myself very well, but I am pretty much at the end of my tether as this has been going on for well over 5 years and involves some fairly heated arguments. I have siblings who do nothing, but insist they have to be involved. They won't sign unless POA is set up as they want.... But it's the POA in action I'd really like to get a handle on.

Any RL experience would be welcome. You can also tell me what it's like if you DON'T have one in place, but I am pretty sure that is a total PITA.

What is happening with the drafting and redrafting process?

I've done these for my parents and ILs and it was fill in the boxes, file and forget. I've also a lot of experience of the Health and Welfare LPA in practice.

The key point is to pick one sibling who is prepared to do all the donkey work and one back up. Everyone else shuts up and expresses their overwhelming gratitude to the nominated person. Having a system where everyone is involved for every decision is a recipe for disaster.

The Attorney is only there to manage accounts in the best interest of the person - making sure the bills are paid, food is on the table. You do not need all the siblings signing off on the online shopping.

Health and Welfare is honestly very similar - some massive decisions need to be taken in an emergency and families faffing about saying 'but my brother in Australia also has LPA and wants to be involved' is not helpful.

Just thinking that your siblings might be being 'difficult' here....

Bear in mind that the banks don't have to give you simple access if your POA is complex. They require joint or several set up on all banking decisions to get the set up I described we nearly had 1 refused as MIL reserved the sale of her house as a joint decision where they has to act together. So if your siblings are wanting joint decision on anything over £10 etc it won't work - suggest you speak to your mums bank and see what they will accept.

I got a load of crap from the solicitors when my dad was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and wanted to hand it all over to me and my brother to deal with. He still had capacity.

Solicitors were disappointing, very slow in responding and said he (dad) needed to give his permission/agreement. I think I may have lost my shit at that point as it was around the time dad died (very soon after diagnosis). Luckily I never needed either of them, he'd wanted to go into a nursing home but ended up in the hospice.

So my advice would be to get the process for activating it put in writing.

Four drafts? The prime consideration here is that finished is better than perfect, if something happens while you are on draft six then it is court of protection time. As an only child I skipped the sibling wrangling and we just had the argument about spending all that money (£85 I think) on something she might not need.

Both Lloyds and HSBC set me up with online banking on mum's accounts, I had the care bills emailed to me and paid them. All her bills were already on direct debit so it was really only the care bills I had to pay. You are right, there would be plenty of time for a family consultation about each bill if that's what was needed.

It's not just about cash, mum had to have a document signed and witnessed to assure her pension provider that she was still alive and she reached the stage where she couldn't sign (we'll leave aside the joy of getting a witness into a care home during covid restrictions). I have PoA - no problem, I can sign.

We did have a joint account which meant I could pay for online shopping and meals out for years before she lost capacity. It was very convenient but wouldn't have funded a nursing place for very long.

If you set up LPA for finances and property for more than one Do it jointly and severally (with your siblings) , never ever jointly (ie and together) (Which would require both of POAs attending the bank in person for each transaction and is unworkable in practice of internet banking and online transactions )

Don't delay get LPA (POA) set up whilst your parents still have capacity to understand. Your siblings are being stupid. It's nothing to do with them and by arguing they are risking thousands of pounds and it not being set up in time. If you all have jointly and severally you all arrange online oversight of bank statements and accounts - and can keep an eye on each other by seeing the transactions . Is guest one person does it and the other 2 are "monitors" and big purchases or bills are discussed.

You Might as well do LPA health and welfare at same time. Will only be the court fee cost of the orders or you do it online.

So you Get LPA finances and property set up - papers submitted into cOP asap. Once you have the orders in place- which takes months and months- , Then you make appointments with bank and show them the order, they then record you and any other lpa as having authority to act in donors behalf - Either alongside her with her consent or for her as she has lost capacity. You'd be sensible to set up online banking for the LPAs when you make that appmt with the bank. Do it all now whilst you can.

I have LPA F&p and H&W for my parents . Just me not my sister as parents thought I'd be best at it. My sister didn't object as she knew I would show her whatever I was doing and involve her in big decisions (she's too busy for the minutiae) - it's just easier that one person takes a lead in practice. The other LPAs can be silent and just as oversight.

People can be removed as LPA finances and property of there is a fraud btw as LPAs must act in best interests of the person (& police do prosecute if an LPA has stolen money), so your siblings should not be worrying about that side of it. It's tightly regulated what you can and can't do.

You send copies to all utilities so they record you as the LPA, as and when you need to take over managing those

Third party mandate is just an agreement for your bank for you to support your mum (whilst waiting for POa usually) its no good

Sorry ... not finished
Third party mandate is no good once someone loses capacity and it's bank specific, is not a legal document giving you any rights to make decisions on persons behalf

If your siblings want to be LPAs they have to understand they too must sometimes attend in person with the LPA court order with you once granted (eg the initial registering of LPA visit to the bank).

Why don't you look up the bank rules for LPAs specific to your parents bank and building societies

Once you’ve got it registered with the OPG, you then set it up with banks etc as you need. No need to do it all in one go.

Setting it up with banks and building societies has become a lot easier over the last 10 years now more of the staff have dealt with one and know what they’re doing.

Get 3-4 certified copies, don’t let the original out of your site. Some places will accept a scan of the certified copy, others insist on seeing the actual copy. If you do it in branch, you’ll need id for you and the POA. You shouldn’t need donor’s id but best to take in case. You don’t have to set up all attorneys at once - after 10 years, I’ve still got only me set up on all accounts but one. Once you’ve got it set up, you can access the account as if it were your own. And you won’t have to produce the POA again.

@LizzieSiddal

Health POAs can only be registered once capacity is lost

That isn’t the, dh and I have them for each other, and we also have them for his parents. They are all registered incase they are ever needed, and like the money POA are much easier to put in place when everyone involved is of sound mind.

They can be registered, they can’t be used until capacity is lost.

Finance may, if the right box is ticked, be used while donor still has capacity

Regarding having to send off certified copies to institutions. If you set up your LPAs on-line, every time someone wants proof you just log on, a code is generated and you send that off electronically or by phone. So much easier now not having to send certified copies.

Just want to add, I also registered it with the tax office as I needed to speak to someone about her tax code.
Had to send off certified copies.
Whenever the tax office or building society send out mail for her, it now comes to my address, addressed to me. I’ve only registered it where necessary as Mum is of sound mind and this all makes her a ‘non person’

You lot are fab. Thank you so much! Will have a good read and digest.

It's such a PITFA. And I'm sure plenty of you are familiar with siblings who CBA to do anything until there is the potential of 'their' money being at risk.

@TherebytheGraceofGodgoI

I’ve been added to Mum’s bank account, so basically it’s a joint account, although I’ve done it to get a debit card in my name so I can buy shopping for her, order stuff or pay bills. I keep a written book too which explains transactions should my siblings wish to check. I use the same bank so when I log on to my account on the internet, the joint account is available to me too which is great for paying bills transfers etc. I have a POA but haven’t registered it at the bank because if you do then your loved ones have no say over the account anymore and will no longer be issued with cards/cheque books. (Sure that’s right) Also, as previously stated, if your loved one dies then as the account is joint then it remains open which makes things easier to manage when sorting out their estate. I have only registered the POA at a building society. They take a copy and then you become the person having control over it after providing identification. I have only registered myself but if my siblings wanted to then they could provide identification and register themselves ( we can act together or separately). Mum had Bonds and Isas and when they matured and were reinvested I’d have to drag her along to sign the forms. (Dad had done them and she hated having to go in, listen to the spiel and sign forms she didn’t understand). Now she happily stays home and I just sign the forms. Hope this helps you. I found all banks etc were very helpful and happy to give advice along the way.

The part about registering with the bank isn’t my experience. I have POA for my Dad jointly with DSIS. I have it registered and do all his online banking, but he still has a debit card. We haven’t got POA debit cards as we keep a record and transfer what he owes at the end of each month. Dad just spends what he likes I just make sure he doesn’t go overdrawn.

It's not the siblings money. It's mum or dad's money which can only be spent on things for mum or dad.

By the time your parent has lost capacity they are honestly living a very simple life - I know this is hard to think about.

If they are at home it is paying the direct debits, paying for the care agency, food bills. Plus occasionally any new clothing/bed linen etc that is worn out. Or emergency plumbing repairs. There's no fancy expences for a new conservatory or round the world cruises.

Similarly if they are in a care home it's paying the fees, plus anything else the care home tells you they need. You probably don't even get much choice in when the house needs to be sold, it's when the bills need to be paid.

Your siblings need to wise up to what a POA is actually for - keeping your mum or dad in food, heating and housing when they don't know how to do it themselves.

@TherebytheGraceofGodgoI

I’ve been added to Mum’s bank account, so basically it’s a joint account, although I’ve done it to get a debit card in my name so I can buy shopping for her, order stuff or pay bills. I keep a written book too which explains transactions should my siblings wish to check. I use the same bank so when I log on to my account on the internet, the joint account is available to me too which is great for paying bills transfers etc. I have a POA but haven’t registered it at the bank because if you do then your loved ones have no say over the account anymore and will no longer be issued with cards/cheque books. (Sure that’s right) Also, as previously stated, if your loved one dies then as the account is joint then it remains open which makes things easier to manage when sorting out their estate. I have only registered the POA at a building society. They take a copy and then you become the person having control over it after providing identification. I have only registered myself but if my siblings wanted to then they could provide identification and register themselves ( we can act together or separately). Mum had Bonds and Isas and when they matured and were reinvested I’d have to drag her along to sign the forms. (Dad had done them and she hated having to go in, listen to the spiel and sign forms she didn’t understand). Now she happily stays home and I just sign the forms. Hope this helps you. I found all banks etc were very helpful and happy to give advice along the way.

This isn't correct...as POA you get a bank card and possibly cheque book if you want but it is not a joint account. The account holder still can operate the account as they want. My partner has this with his dad. His card says POA on it. I also had POA over my late husband's account. I could log in and move money and pay bills just as he could.

When someone dies the POA dies too

If you have a joint account then that surely means half the money becomes yours on relatives death. Whereas with my husband and also my partners father the money in the account belongs to them (the original account holders) completely on death.

If you just have a joint account with your parent then if they pass away it legally all belongs to you (the remaining living person named on the account). It's the same with ALL joint accounts.

I don't think your siblings would like this. Far better to do a POA.

I have lasting POA for my mum and started with general POA whilst the LpOA went through - it was following my dad’s death and so I can deal with all admin/finances as my mum wouldn’t know where to start. We had a solicitor draw both up and I have joint and severally with one of my daughters in case I could no longer do it.
Each and every company I contacted had differing ideas/rules etc on what was needed, not needed, what they wanted - getting info from Scottish widows was like trying to get into mi5 - not only LPOA but a notarised identity form signing involving lots of documents and time - I didn’t even want to do anything with the savings just ensure I could speak with them on behalf of my mum.
Virgin bank were going to add me to the bank then they weren’t then they did - I never got a cheque book and my mum had to sign upto online banking though they had said I could - however I have a 3rd party debit card that is registered to my address as if it’s my account - strangely some online transactions get randomly declined - some don’t - and I assume it’s something to do with registered address - if that happens I pay on my own card then transfer. I keep detailed records and receipts.
You have to discuss payments, decisions and ascertain the person’s wishes - my mum is pretty competent on that but even with communication difficulties you would have to try.
To be fair it’s ok though it took a while for smooth running. I do deal with bills so it’s not just talking to the banks but all the companies- I’ve cut a few down by discussing the ridiculous prices with them but haven’t actually changed any on deals - as my parents had clear favourite British companies and it’s not for me but my mum to decide what she wants, it made her a bit anxious discussing alternative utility companies so I left it as is. I do discuss everything with her if not in mind numbing detail.
I don’t have medical POA which is fine but gets super confusing when she tells me I need to fetch meds or be there for a dr visit etc and it’s not accurate but no one can talk to me to find out what is accurate- it’s also difficult when she fibs to drs and I would like to make sure it was accurate but again - I just try and ‘share’ with them.
Best of luck.

Just a heads up that Health & Welfare POAs are taking a long time to complete currently. You are told not to chase the OPG until 20 weeks after submitting. I know mine for my mum will complete fairly soon after about 16 weeks. Don’t know about the Financial ones but could easily be similar.

My opinion on the Finance:
Don’t put more people on it than necessary. Many of the financial providers I’ve dealt with have tried to id check both me and the other holder even though it is jointly and severally, which just makes everything more of a pain. Do not include anyone who lives abroad or does not have easily checkable id.

It will all take longer than you think.

Halifax are amazing, so crossed fingers that your parent banks with them. They did everything in one phonecall using secure digital uploads. Some of the others I am still battling 9 months after starting (BMO I am looking at you).

Make sure your parent has a passport (but it is a good idea for you to hold onto it, for security reasons). They may have accounts/investments taken out before the current money laundering rules and to access that the company typically needs to id check them. That’s where the passport comes in.

Prior to using the POA I drafted letters to lots of companies which my parents signed to allow me to speak on their behalf (also helps in case of deafness). Also redirected post to me where needed.

First job is to do a list of every company/utility that they have dealings with. I was helped by the fact that they were moving house and the logistics of it were down to me so that effectively gave me a reason to take on all the paperwork, as otherwise they would not have coped. (Father who had previously dealt with it had eary dementia and it later became apparent that he was drowning in paper and hadn’t really been coping with it for a couple of years).

Good Luck.

I second the fact that every company deals with it differently.

If I have time I would like to get my MP to propose a private members bill to streamline the process and put rules in place for how all this is dealt with. I have even considered starting a website for people to share their experiences.

I firmly believe that companies are deliberately putting up barriers to attornies because they know that we will spot how bad the interest rate/insurance/tariff etc is that they have been fobbing the elderly person off with.

I have third party authority on my parents mortgage. I also have POA but haven't officially told the company yet. Every time I phone they say 'I need to find the TPA letter.' Then they say 'I can't find the TPA.... You can't have done one.' I say 'Yes we did, you just can't find it because it's on a different screen to the one you expect it to be on.' We go backwards and forwards, them insisting there isn't one and me insisting there is. Then, I suggest that Dad passes security and then passes the phone to me. Dad gets stressed because they expect him to know details like the amount paid to the penny, then as he's starting to lose his rag, they say "Oh, I've found the letter now!"

I really need to properly record the POA with them. That's what it's like if you haven't got it (or haven't used it!).

I got a general POA for the interim wait time - you can I think so this from the Internet - a download- but we did have it done by a solicitor.
Some places took this and didn’t need the LPOA some didn’t. I get the impression not all firms know what a POA is - a streamlined process for all companies and banks etc would be great. I still have issues with the water board for example who reverted last week to needing to speak to my mum for an appointment that had been set up twice but cancelled with no issues via myself.

Thanks for all the info everyone. Hope to make some progress soon! It can be so difficult getting these things done for so many reasons!