Power of Attorney -how it works in practice

[MauvishMaude]

Hello Knowledgeable Children Of Oldies

I am going through some fairly painful conversations with my remaining parent. I am pretty clued up on what a POA is, and how to get one, as am currently on the 3rd or 4th draft with aforementioned parent.

What I don't actually really know is, how does it work IRL? At the moment, it is the financial one I am particularly concerned with.

As far as I can see, nothing financial related would need attention urgently? For example, it would be possible to speak to a bank and explain the scenario and then sort out what was required, and that could happen over a period of 5-10 days, rather than within 24 hours.

I'm probably not explaining myself very well, but I am pretty much at the end of my tether as this has been going on for well over 5 years and involves some fairly heated arguments. I have siblings who do nothing, but insist they have to be involved. They won't sign unless POA is set up as they want.... But it's the POA in action I'd really like to get a handle on.

Any RL experience would be welcome. You can also tell me what it's like if you DON'T have one in place, but I am pretty sure that is a total PITA.

What financial help or decisions do you want help with.

I'm expecting it to range from regular banking issues through to selling a property and paying for care/a care home. Any anecdotal experience would be useful at this stage as I have found loads about setting them up, less about putting them into practice.

The donor either grants you permission to deal with their affairs or they become incapable of understanding and dealing with their own affairs. You need to get the POA in place before the person loses capacity as you can't get one afterwards. And the donor (the person who the POA is in place for) decides who gets the responsibility, be it solely, jointly or severally - it's not your siblings' decision.

On the poa form there is a section where the donor states whether they want financial decisions to take effect as soon as its registered or when the donor loses capacity. For regular banking and payingnfor a carehome your parent can set youmup as a third party so you get a cheque book, cards, are able to pay their bills etc. Who wont sign what.

Hi Blanket. Thanks. Can you tell me about the third party set up please?

You and your parent need to go to their bank and ask to set up a third party agreement, it can only be done with your parent permission in person if they are able to go because they have to sign the forms. You then have access to their bank account. I cannot post a link from my iowd but if you google their banks website it will give you all the info. Dont just turn up, you have to make an appointment. I hope you get it sorted, it can all become a bit of a nightmare. It wont let you sell a property though I dont think but you will have to check.

Thanks Blankets. This is exactly the sort of info I need. In fact, Dad and I had been mulling over doing something along those very lines with the bank.

Funny, there is so much info about why you need a POA, and how you appoint them etc, but little about them in practice. Perhaps I haven't looked hard enough!

Whichever option you go for the bank will issue you with a new chequebook and card with bith your names on it if I remember correctly. You can also set up standing orders if thats easier for him. If for example you do his shopping maybe he could pay x into your account each week. Do keep receipts especially if its for large payments and family tension. The poa is good for people who lack capacity but there are limits to what you can do especially with health and welfare. Without wanting to upset you have you discussed what he wants IF he becomes unable to make decisions and what help he might need. Do be aware that poa does cease when someone dies which some people are not aware of.

I’ve been added to Mum’s bank account, so basically it’s a joint account, although I’ve done it to get a debit card in my name so I can buy shopping for her, order stuff or pay bills. I keep a written book too which explains transactions should my siblings wish to check.
I use the same bank so when I log on to my account on the internet, the joint account is available to me too which is great for paying bills transfers etc.
I have a POA but haven’t registered it at the bank because if you do then your loved ones have no say over the account anymore and will no longer be issued with cards/cheque books. (Sure that’s right)
Also, as previously stated, if your loved one dies then as the account is joint then it remains open which makes things easier to manage when sorting out their estate.
I have only registered the POA at a building society. They take a copy and then you become the person having control over it after providing identification. I have only registered myself but if my siblings wanted to then they could provide identification and register themselves ( we can act together or separately). Mum had Bonds and Isas and when they matured and were reinvested I’d have to drag her along to sign the forms. (Dad had done them and she hated having to go in, listen to the spiel and sign forms she didn’t understand). Now she happily stays home and I just sign the forms.
Hope this helps you. I found all banks etc were very helpful and happy to give advice along the way.

I went to a branch of Mum's bank for a booked appointment, with the POA and a lot of identification etc, but without Mum, and got set up as a person with access to her account. I have a debit card (which has my name but also 'POA', and access to online banking. Also phone banking but that doesn't work as well. At that point what I was doing was reassuring Mum that she had enough money, and talking through big financial decisions with her, plus a bit of legwork. The POA helped me liaise with her solicitor for her flat saleand for when she pulled out of the sale She was still fairly capable then, though was finding it all incredibly difficult. Once she got ill, my God it was helpful to be able to talk to care homes and social services about money.

It's a burden, but nothing like as bad as not having it.

It would have been easier from the start if I'd had an account at the same bank as Mum. Eg it took a while to get the ability to make online transfers set up.

It was possible just to be an extra person and not to stop my Mum's access. I've never bothered cutting that off as she's long past being able to use a bank now.

You are being granted permission to act on their behalf if they cannot in the future. Initially it can sit in a drawer but it is ready for when it's required

If they are already mentally incapacitated then they cannot consent to a poa - in which case you have to apply to the court of protection and it's both arduous and expensive (dp has to for his dd with ld's)

The POA for finance gives you the same financial control as you would if say you had a joint bank account over financial affairs. In a similar way to a marriage set up. However you are an administrator rather than an actual joint owner so the cash etc is.not yours/counted as yours for anything such as tax purposes.

In terms of set up you need a POA which appoints 1 of you to deal with standard affairs, but perhaps a joint one over the sale of property etc - big stuff. To need 4 of you to sign to pay the gas bill is unworkable. Your dad puts this in place - he does not even have to tell your siblings! (They can object but it's unlikely to cause anything but hassle if you dad is currently of sound mind).

POA can list people in sequence too.

So for example my MIL gave POA to her 2 sons. The document listed them separately for all decisions EXCEPT the sale of her house which was reserved as a joint decision. It also listed me and bil's wife as back upd if either of the boys predeceased her.

In practical sense this meant that my husband took this document to the bank, got himself listed on all her accounts. They gave him Internet banking access and a bank card and he could operate the account as if it were his own. I think 1 of the banks required bil to present and provide ID too but not all. Most of the other issues utilities etc we just told them he had POA and they gave us access.

When it can to selling the house they would.have had to both sign the papers. As it happened by that time they were joint executors anyway as she had died (and the POA died with her).

I've done a few of these now so do keep asking if it helps!

permanentTemporary and graceofgod - thank you. Really helpful information! I've had a look at some bank websites and can see some offer various delegate options.

If anyone has anymore anecdotes about the practicalities of using a POA in day to day life I'd be very grateful. (Am fully aware of issues such as they are no longer applicable after donor dies etc. All that info is easy to find, but not finding it easy to find about practical usage anywhere.). Also, if anyone can tell me exactly what a ball ache trying to do this sort of thing without a POA is please feel free! I know you have to apply to a court....!

The hardest thing has been trying to sell Mum's shares. That's proved impossible so far! It's turned out not to be essential just at the moment so I've shelved it for now.

Yes critical bit.

Both POAs must be signed whilst your dad has sound mind. For a financial POA (not a health poa) you can have it activated now. (If the right options on the form are ticked) So you can take over now and get things sorted. Your dad can still also do things as he always has at the bank etc - provided he is believed to be of sound mind at the time of doing so. This stays in place once/if he looses the ability to act for himself and you can just carry on.

Health POAs can only be registered once capacity is lost. Finance POAs can also be set up that way but are significantly.less helpful.

So without a POA you can't touch bank accounts etc or house sale etc. You might be avle to set a limited thing up with the bank but it would likely create alot more stress (need to go in person to 1 branch etc) I don't know.much about this. But essentially you would.end up with no access to the money. Pensions etc similarly.

In order to action anything you would either have to wait till he died and the executor would deal with it. OR seek a court appointmented guardianship. That takes time, costa a believe are upwards of £10k and it is only doable once dad is not of sound mind - so of no use for the current day to day. Your siblings can equally block this and trying to do so will increase the bill dramatically. Really its worth avoiding provided you dad is still of sound mind and wants tonsort this out.

I can tell you about the ball ache if you don’t have one

If for example your parent needs care and needs to pay for it and there’s no one with POA then you have to go through the deputyship process. The forms are much more arduous and there is a higher fee to apply. And it can take about 9 months.

However, if someone has 3rd party access on the account then you might still need to apply for deputyship but at least there can be access to the money in the mean time.

My understanding is that with a POA you wave it at the bank/estate agent/etc and then can access your parents affairs/information:

I’d also recommend the health and welfare one as if you don’t have that and your parent needs care, we (the local authority) will take your views into account but ultimately be the decision makers about what’s in their best interests, whereas if you have it then it’s your decision and you that has to give consent.

As others have said you set up the POA and then it’s sits there until you need to use it. Dh and I have them for each other, we’re k ly in our 50s, so they aren’t used but they are there for when needed. I presume you’ll just show the POA documents as and when you need to.

Regarding not having a POA and it being a ball ache, it really is! A 50 year old relative had a very serious stroke, he was in hospital for 7 months. His partner of 28 years, who he lived with, has two children with and owns a house with had no rights at all, she had no access to bank accounts, so because he was the one who sorted all the finances she was in a huge mess. It took many months for her to get a POA, In the meantime relatives had to subsidise her until she could get at the money.

Your best bet is to ring up some solicitors and have a chat. They’ll tell you the costs to set up and beable to answer any questions. You can do it yourself but I really would not recommend this unless your confident you can do it correctly.

Practically: once set up we took over MILs household finance. Dealt with utilities/council everything as I do my own. She still had her bank card so could go and get cash and go shopping as she always had but without the stress of dealing with bigger stuff. It also meant we could answer questions- do I have enough money, has this been paid. Etc.

We set it up when MIL got caught with a scammer - who collected her bank card.... . She had no Internet banking so the stress of trying to work out what had happened was a nightmare.

Using a POA is completely weird - I thought we'd get some kind of letter or card or reference number when we all decided it was time to take over, but no. Most organisations seem to just accept you have one on your says. So learn to say with confidence "I have DMs POA for Finances, and I'm calling about xyzzzz". and that will get you a very long way. I also had some certified copies made (any solicitor will do it) which was useful when they wanted to see a document as it meant there was no risk of the original being lost.

That said, if you can call the key institutions while your DF still has capacity and get him to tell them you have his authority to deal with matters that helps a lot too.

Definitely do the 3rd party bank access asap, it's a godsend. But also any savings, and things like house and car insurance - basically any official looking letter that comes through the door.

And make sure you are up to date with any online passwords he uses!

Health POAs can only be registered once capacity is lost

That isn’t the, dh and I have them for each other, and we also have them for his parents. They are all registered incase they are ever needed, and like the money POA are much easier to put in place when everyone involved is of sound mind.

*true

I had PoA for my grandma. We started with me having approved access to her bank account, but there were certain things I couldn’t do so we got PoA. She had dementia and we got it just in time. Although she was starting to become forgetful she nearly clobbered the solicitor with her handbag when he pointed out that she should be careful who she chooses to be PoA and she should be sure they have her best interests at heart. “Of course she does. She’s my GRANDDAUGHTER!”

Once it was in place I just spoke to various places as and when I needed to and told them I had PoA and they dealt with me exactly as they would have her. There was an insurance claim for her house that I dealt with, then I sold her house and dealt with all the various suppliers etc. with no more hassle than if it had been my own house.

The bank was more difficult, but only because Lloyds were useless and kept sending cards to the wrong address and not giving me the access I needed to manage the account online. At one point they told me I had to go into a branch and register for phone banking before they could set me up online. Once her house had sold and she had £££ in the bank Lloyds invited her (and me) to upgrade to a Private Banking account, which I said I’d only accept if they sorted out all the access for me, which they did. That’s certainly something I’ll never warrant on my own - they reserve you a parking space and their china cups and saucers had a fancy Lloyds private banking logo on them!

I had to send a certified copy of the PoA paperwork to someone and didn’t have a local solicitor and didn’t fancy paying out for one, I heard you could get them done in the job centre. So off I went and although they were a bit confused they did me a copy and stamped and signed every page as a true copy. It was accepted fine by whoever asked for it. Not sure if they still do that but it worked for me.