POA/Wills - parent refusing

[Couldhavebeenme3]

Hi all. Recent (but not unexpected) diagnosis of lung cancer, second diagnosis after previous cancer 7 years ago.

I'm (for all intents and purposes) on my own dealing with mum, but am also a single parent of two, with a f/t job and health issues of my own.

We've discussed POA and wills previously, she's told us what she'd like us to do with her estate, and admits that she hated feeling incapable during her last treatment.

However is now refusing to legally finalise a will and POA. Thinks its too formal, and too final. Cannot be persuaded that it will save so much hassle for us me should she be even temporarily unable to conduct her affairs - she is looking at surgery including time in icu plus a schedule of chemo, so is likely to be somewhat limited physically nevermind emotionally to handle stuff. Acknowledges that everything is likely to land on me, and also that my sibling will still be interfering yet absent throughout. I have no ££ buffer to support her should she need any bailing out.

Does anyone have any advice/info/shock tactics I can present to her to show her that investing time now could help me out down the line?

I'm aware how heartless this might sound, but I've just spent 2 days juggling kids/work/childcare whilst I've stayed with her following a medical procedure. I'm knackered. I'm feeling a raft of emotions with regard to her health but also feeling somewhat resentful that she's refusing to do whatever we can to ease things over the next few months in the short term.

Thanks

Difficult but ultimately it’s her choice

@DGFB

Difficult but ultimately it’s her choice

Yeah, I know.

I think I'm adding to the frustration as a couple of friends have recently been/are going through the same situation and have lost a lot of love for their ill/deceased relatives having done nothing to make the most difficult times easier.

I think as long as your mum is mentally capable, I'd be quite blunt. Point out that she is going to be undergoing a lot of treatment and is likely to have significant inpatient time. That without POA you won't be able to pay her bills. So when she comes out she may/will face charges/overdue fees/bailiffs because you haven't been able to act on her behalf.

Now, if she anything like mum she'll say, "well you'll just ring them and pretend to be me and make it all ok". If she pulls that one I'd be explaining that despite living her very much, you won't be breaking the law by pretending to be her to anyone.

Can you pitch the POA as a way for you to do (even) more for her? How great it will be if you can order bank statements, replace lost credit cards etc. Pitch it as for her benefit, not yours. It might do the trick. Will is far more tricky - presumably it's just you and your sibling i.e. she doesn't have a partner/dh. If this is the case, then I understand the estate would fall to you both to be divided equally and you could then distribute as per her wishes. If she's suggested her estate should not be divided equally between you and your sibling then you would have a problem - could you get a Letter of Wishes from her - you type, she signs. Also, POA - make sure it's lasting and you get one for health as well. Good luck, OP, it's really, really tough for you.

Thanks both. Her affairs are simple - no multiple bank accounts, very basic household bills (no Internet, I already pay her mobile bill) but if she can't get her bi-weekly mini-statement then obviously hackers will unleash hell on her account/credit rating and it becomes a huge crisis. I am going to have to practice saying no, aren't I?

I do all my banking etc online as I don't have time to be making trips to the bank, to insurance brokers, I pay bills online. If she considers personal monetary loss for late fees this may influence her if I'm not going to be allowed to act on her behalf.

Ask her whether she prefers you or a stranger deciding her medical care (or lack of)

Ask her if she fancies Boris and his chums getting a chunk of her estate because she made no will....

My DM died intestate with no will, whereas my DF died with a will and it was not extra trouble handling my DMs estate compared to my DF. You still file the death with courts with either will to confirm being executor or to be appointed one if no will. You follow inheritance law when there is no will instead of a wills instructions, but in both cases you’re still dividing assets and transferring ownership.

On a side note, I have never had trouble paying bills on behalf of someone still living. I pay my adult DDs utility bills in Scotland even though her name is on the accounts and I’m paying from France. They don’t care where the money comes from...especially if you are paying online with a credit card. You just put in invoice number, confirm the account to be credited and pay. So I am not sure you need a POA to pay a bill?

If the person is dead, normally you need only a death certificate and be next of kin to not just pay but close mobile phone, internet accounts, not a POA. For bank accounts/assets you need either court probate approving will showing you as executor or court filing appointing you as executor if no will....six eggs or half dozen really.

So really I thought it would be easier too with will and all that and was grateful to my DF for having one, but when he passed it wasn’t actually any easier in practice in my opinion. It was actually not needed, in his case, as his will matched inheritance law anyway by giving equal shares to all his children.

Just my experience.

I think as long as your mum is mentally capable, I'd be quite blunt. Point out that she is going to be undergoing a lot of treatment and is likely to have significant inpatient time. That without POA you won't be able to pay her bills. So when she comes out she may/will face charges/overdue fees/bailiffs because you haven't been able to act on her behalf.

This ^

Is there anyone from MacMillan or Marie Curie Nurses or any other support she is receiving that might also suggest it to her - pointing out that whereas it is ultimately up to her, it is a very practical, sensible thing she can do to both help you and to make life easier for herself?

You can check how intestacy will apply to her estate here: www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-will

If that's roughly in line with her wishes, then as above it should be fine.

Re PoA, if she's incapacitated long term then the application to court is much longer and more expensive than an LPA where there's still capacity.

@MrsMoastyToasty

Ask her if she fancies Boris and his chums getting a chunk of her estate because she made no will....

As far as I know, inheritance tax in U.K. is the same whether you die with or without a will and there is no additional financial penalty for dying without a will.

No wise words but big hugs OP. It took two years to convince my DM to allow me to organise POA.
I’d have one last try saying any unpaid bills will result in penalties and does she want to waste hundreds or thousands on bills on fines etc.

Sometimes if intestacy means that less goes to your spouse than would have been the case with a will (e.g. intestacy provides for some to go to your children), then you can be in a worse position due to less spouse exemption. But your estate needs to be fairly big before that happens.

Sorry, that was meant to be in reply to @PlanDeRaccordement

PlandeRaccord - you have no problems paying your DD’s bills because you are using YOUR money to pay for them.

The OP can’t afford to do that. She won’t be able to access her mums money to pay her mums bills. She won’t be able to deal with any errors or mistakes (like a massive over-estimated bill or the end of a fixed term utility contract). If her mother needs any care she won’t be able to get the up to date statements needed for a financial assessment.

@PlanDeRaccordement

My DM died intestate with no will, whereas my DF died with a will and it was not extra trouble handling my DMs estate compared to my DF. You still file the death with courts with either will to confirm being executor or to be appointed one if no will. You follow inheritance law when there is no will instead of a wills instructions, but in both cases you’re still dividing assets and transferring ownership.

On a side note, I have never had trouble paying bills on behalf of someone still living. I pay my adult DDs utility bills in Scotland even though her name is on the accounts and I’m paying from France. They don’t care where the money comes from...especially if you are paying online with a credit card. You just put in invoice number, confirm the account to be credited and pay. So I am not sure you need a POA to pay a bill?

If the person is dead, normally you need only a death certificate and be next of kin to not just pay but close mobile phone, internet accounts, not a POA. For bank accounts/assets you need either court probate approving will showing you as executor or court filing appointing you as executor if no will....six eggs or half dozen really.

So really I thought it would be easier too with will and all that and was grateful to my DF for having one, but when he passed it wasn’t actually any easier in practice in my opinion. It was actually not needed, in his case, as his will matched inheritance law anyway by giving equal shares to all his children.

Just my experience.

Whilst the OP can physically pay the bills, I'm assuming she needs access to her Mother's money to do so as she can't afford to pay the bills from her own money. She can't do this unless she is either a party to the account, has a 3rd party mandate or has POA.

If your mother is like mine, it was the fear of not being in control of her affairs and having things taken out of her hands that was the reason for her reluctance. She was an avid DM reader and had seen too many stories of relatives spending all the cash and was petrified she would be fleeced - either by strangers or family!

Can you reassure her that the POA will only be used in the circumstances of her not being capable, otherwise if she is well enough, she can still run her accounts etc? That way, you’ve got all bases covered. Your mother will then feel that she can manage and it’s not being taken out of her hands but you’ve got control should the worst happen.

When we got the POA forms signed, mother’s doctor and her bank managers witnessed them (health and welfare/financial) They both explained the implications but also assured her it was very wise and sensible thing to do, otherwise outsiders might have step in. Mother was very secretive and private, so I think this finally persuaded her.

I'm third party representative for my mother's bank account. Have my own card and she still has hers although she doesn't use it anymore.

We have LPAs in place now (her suggestion) but have been third party for a few years.

We told my mum that the whole family were doing POAs for each other and this convinced her to go ahead, obviously with us doing all the paperwork and just presenting her with the pages to sign. Just in time! She was diagnosed with dementia shortly after and without POA we all would have been at the mercy of social services regarding residential care, her property, her bank accounts etc. With POA we were in charge not just of her finances but her entire welfare. It was such a relief. I wish you well op.

@Comefromaway

PlandeRaccord - you have no problems paying your DD’s bills because you are using YOUR money to pay for them.

The OP can’t afford to do that. She won’t be able to access her mums money to pay her mums bills. She won’t be able to deal with any errors or mistakes (like a massive over-estimated bill or the end of a fixed term utility contract). If her mother needs any care she won’t be able to get the up to date statements needed for a financial assessment.

That is true, I am using my money.

On a side note, I have never had trouble paying bills on behalf of someone still living. I pay my adult DDs utility bills in Scotland even though her name is on the accounts and I’m paying from France. They don’t care where the money comes from...especially if you are paying online with a credit card. You just put in invoice number, confirm the account to be credited and pay. So I am not sure you need a POA to pay a bill?

Oh I'm sure I could physically pay my mum's bills if she is unable to get to the bank, or post office, or call up the companies, but I cannot afford to without being reimbursed somehow, which short of going to hers, taking her bank card, going to the atm, withdrawing funds, going to my bank/atm to deposit into my account which takes time, effort and inclination that are all in short supply at the moment when I could deal with that sort of stuff remotely with POA. My friend's dad was incredibly ill and incapable for months before his death, without POA his affairs were in a real state before she was able to pay off and close accounts with his death cert.

I don't want to be begrudging time that could be better spent actually caring for her (and my own family) rather than an hour doing a 5 minute transaction.

Yes, I was focussed on the technical aspect of paying another persons bills and how it is possible without a POA. But I understand/agree that if this is not affordable then you would need a POA to use their money to pay their bill.

If your mum is resisting a POA will she accept a 3rd party mandate. If she will, work with her to internet banking and you should be ok.

@Couldhavebeenme3

Thanks both. Her affairs are simple - no multiple bank accounts, very basic household bills (no Internet, I already pay her mobile bill) but if she can't get her bi-weekly mini-statement then obviously hackers will unleash hell on her account/credit rating and it becomes a huge crisis. I am going to have to practice saying no, aren't I?

I do all my banking etc online as I don't have time to be making trips to the bank, to insurance brokers, I pay bills online. If she considers personal monetary loss for late fees this may influence her if I'm not going to be allowed to act on her behalf.

I can see a will and POA would be sensible but I think it is a bit pessimistic to say if you don't get a bi-weekly mini statement then hackers will unleash hell on her account. Does she have a problem with hackers. I've never had an issue other than someone trying to buy something, presumably they cloned my card. I didn't know but the bank phoned me and said they thought it was suspicious and when I said I didn't know anything about it they just stopped it.

Can't she just give you the password so you can deal with the account?