Paying for live in care

[Fupoffyagrasshole]

My mum is quite wealthy - plenty of money coming in from various properties and investments!!

She’s never given any of us a penny - which is fine - her choice!

She has dementia and it’s really gotten bad now

We are in process of getting power of attorney to get control of finances etc

She has access to so much money and we have no idea where it goes - could be going in the bin for all we know

Now she needs live in care - and my brother has just emailed to say he needs 500£ each a month from the siblings…

I don’t have this kind of money! The rest have agreed - I don’t know what to say!

I have a new baby, on maternity leave so not bringing in lots of money right now, we have savings - but nursery is looming and we need money for that!

She has the money to fund this herself but she won’t pay for it

What’s people’s thoughts on this!

I don’t want to fall out with my siblings - I’m hoping they understand that if I don’t have the money I dont have it ! I’ve a knot in the pit of my stomach tbh

If she has severe dementia are you still able to get power of attorney, has she had a capacity assessment. Has she agreed to have a live in carer and pay for it. If she has a live in carer who will look after her when the carer has a day off, is asleep, on holidays.

She should have a care needs assessment to see if she is safe to live at home even with a carer, a capacity assessment and a financial assessment, if she is really struggling then she may be safer in a carehome and may need special care which she could get funding for. Does she claim attendance allowance. Who has decided she needs live in care, that is something for her doctor, nurses and social services to decide especially if she lacks capacity to make her own decisions.
I would not agree to give your brother money, you dont know how it will be spent, you dont know if a live in carer is the safest option. I would try and organise a family meeting to discuss how mum gets the right care she needs first before anyone agrees to pay for anything.

I would be extremely surprised you would be able to get power of attorney now her dementia is so bad

We are in Ireland! So we get something called ward of court

Basically 2 doctors assess her and agree she is no longer capable to make her own financial decisions and we will then have control of how her money is spent

We are a little while off that yet but it is in process

She is ok during the day as we have carers dropping in 3 times a day - making sure she eats etc funded by the government

We have agreed that she needs someone there at night as she phones is all through the night confused and she wanders round etc which is now dangerous I feel in case she goes outside or falls

We will probably do live in care first then eventually care home

When we have access to money in a few months we can pay no problem

But my brother is saying it can’t wait she needs someone now

I agree - but I can’t pay for it so think it will have to wait

My mum thinks she’s in perfect health so trying to get her to agree is a lost cause

She needs a assessment, it's not about the money, it's about her safety. How will a live in carer stop her wandering at night, falling or go outside, you cannot lock her in. If the government are funding her daytime care how did that get arranged, was she assessed by a health professional, has she agreed to have a live in carer. Has she been made a ward of Court,

Given what you describe, she is not suitable for live in care. Live in carers are there to support during the day and for emergencies at night. If your DM is restless and unsettled all night, you need a waking night worker. It would be completely unfair on a live in care worker to be woken constantly.

Does the agency supplying the day time care offer a waking night service? If so, expect to pay quite a lot for it.

I don't know the law in RoI. In England you can't get PoA if the person has already lost capacity to make decisions about their finances or care. The case would have to go to the Court of Protection which takes ages, although the CoP can authorise money to be released to pay for care in thd interim.

As for you contributing. if you can't afford it you can't afford it. You need to tell your siblings that.

Just tell your brother you can’t afford it. Don’t place your family’s own financial security at risk. There must be a way to access some of her money. In England if you have state arranged care they will mexoect a contribution if you have savings\properties etc. Is it not the same with you?
Sounds like she might need to be in a residential home if she needs 24/7 care.

Be really clear to your siblings, Op. Say that you can't afford to put any money towards your mother's care.

It's bonkers anyway that this is being considered when no one has any idea of her finances. She needs to pay for any care that she needs if she is able to.

I had a similar request from BIL re MIL and said straight away that I wasn't able to put any money towards her care but good luck to those who could. It made him reconsider what was a ridiculous decision made in the middle of a really stressful time. And guess what? MIL was found to be completely financially able to pay for her own care.

@FleasInMyKnees we have the maximum government help - which is 3 times a day visits.

Going forward anything else is kind of up to us I thought!

The gp unfortunately thinks she’s not bad enough yet to be forced into a care home

We all live far away from her so live in care is the only option we can see for the short term so she isn’t on her own

If she has company on the evenings she is fine she sits and watches tv and relaxes

If she’s alone that’s when the frantic phone calls come.

We are getting ward of court it’s been signed off by 2 doctors

Then we can pay for the carer for a few months until we sort something

If your mum can afford it, your mum needs to pay. There's no need for siblings to contribute if your mum has her own money.
If you can't afford it, you can't afford it. Explain you don't have it available as you are on maternity leave, it's not leaving your mum destitute if she has her own means of paying.

You will have to tell your siblings that you just don't have the money. They cannot force you to pay out money you don't have.

I don't know the Irish system so I cannot advise but you have my sympathy. I got my mum to agree to go into care when she was at a very low point and I said "would you like to come and live closer to me so that I can see you more often?" she said yes, I said "it won't be with me, but it will be in a lovely hotel sort of place where you will have nothing to worry about" and she said yes. So I literally packed her bags and drove her here (I already found a care home with a vacancy and was just waiting for the right moment to form the questions). It was such a relief to get her in there.

You cannot use logic with dementia and you have to enter their world to get things moving and it may feel like you are lying to her, but as her world is so disordered you have to accept that by entering her world the rules are different.

It is still hard work, I have to call her daily and she tells me I have never visited her in the two years she has been there (I used to go twice a week but cut down to once on my doctors orders because it was causing me so much stress).

Sending best wishes and hope for a speedy resolution. Just tell your siblings you don't have a spare E500. Be firm and stand your ground. That is a hell of a lot of money to have to find out of your monthly income- what do they expect you to do? Stop feeding your children? Stop heating your home?

Very difficult, OP, and I hope the Ward of Court situation gets sorted very speedily.

Maybe the siblings who can support costs in the meantime could do so in the basis of a loan? So that when you get control, they get paid back? Maybe check that with the solicitor arranging the Ward of Court?

If there is a live in Carer there are sensors which alert them to your Mum being mobile in the night. Live in care allows for a limited number of short night time attendances. Beyond that, as a Pp said, waking night care is needed. It can still be supplied at home, though.

Does your Mum have enough capacity to use an alarm bracelet that she could press if she fell?

You do need to explain to your sibling that much as you wish to support care for your Mum your finances simply don’t stretch.

Thanks @Mxflamingnoravera

It’s tough going !! She absolutely has the money to pay she is taking in well over 4K a month!! A lot of it is cash though so it’s so hard to keep tabs on -

We have managed to get some of her properties managed by a letting agent and some of the money is at least going into a bank account now whereas before everything was cash!

Biggest obstacle is that one day she says yes let’s have someone move in

The next day it’s no way I never agreed to that

I’ve already emailed back and simply said I can’t afford it !!

I’m not gonna go into reasons why / excuses etc

They all know I’m mat leave and that we recently bought a house and are mortgaged up to our eyes!!

Feel a bit of relief now having said no

I don't know much about the system in Ireland but if she is being made a ward of court does that mean she has lost mental capacity and needs someone to look after her financial affairs like paying bills, accessing money. If she lacks capacity is she still able to make a Power of Attorney or Enduring Power of Attorney or is it too late. Does the person appointed to look after her affairs have the responsility of looking after her health and welfare needs too like having carers in and someone living in her house. Its all a bit of a minefield.

Whilst not the same circumstances , I'm sure it would be the same premise . If a person has lost capacity and family have to take over , then the courts look at the case and agree in the circumstances that the family are acting in that persons best interest.

She had had her phone cut off and the electric nearly cut off how a few times as she stopped paying 🤦‍♀️

My brother to be fair is great and she seems to trust him most so allowed him help with paying some bills

Luckily some rent is now coming to my brother via letting agent and he’s covering her bills

The doctor was quite blunt and said what will likely happen is she will have a fall at some point and end up in hospital and it will then trigger nursing home she reckons

Problem is my mum is happy at home and lives in a dream world where she thinks she’s still working every day and keeping busy

It really is awful to watch but I’m happy she seems happy at least

My mum often says she never agreed to move into a care home, but she did and I know she did and I dont argue when she says it. I say "this is where you need to be for now to keep you safe" then try to divert her attention to a book of photos or some knitting or a jigsaw or anything to move her off the "I want to go home" topic.

A parent with dementia is really hard especially at this point when they can do some stuff but need a lot of support.
I don't know what the system is in Ireland as I've only had dealings with England and Wales but I know from experience that going through everything is rarely easy and you won't necessarily be told everything by the authorities (often further help is there if you push very hard for it) and siblings (yeah family can be great but they can also be hard work)
I'm glad you have said no. If your mum has resources then they must be utilised first as it's way to easy to get trapped in paying for things you shouldn't need to. You must think of your partner and kids too.
Is there an Alzheimers society in Ireland that can help with guidance of processes etc

@Fupoffyagrasshole

We are in Ireland! So we get something called ward of court

Basically 2 doctors assess her and agree she is no longer capable to make her own financial decisions and we will then have control of how her money is spent

We are a little while off that yet but it is in process

She is ok during the day as we have carers dropping in 3 times a day - making sure she eats etc funded by the government

We have agreed that she needs someone there at night as she phones is all through the night confused and she wanders round etc which is now dangerous I feel in case she goes outside or falls

We will probably do live in care first then eventually care home

When we have access to money in a few months we can pay no problem

But my brother is saying it can’t wait she needs someone now

I agree - but I can’t pay for it so think it will have to wait

My mum thinks she’s in perfect health so trying to get her to agree is a lost cause

Would your siblings agree that you can keep invoices etc then refund yourselves once access to your mums money comes through?

Although - I don’t understand how the system works in Ireland, but here she wouldn’t have home care currently funded by the state for any longer than 6 weeks if she has money as you say. Does she definitely still have the money?

Just as an aside. Although I don’t know the costs in ROI as I am in London. But live in care plus a night time carer who is awake would cost about £1500 a week and you are saying she is bringing in 4K.
On top of this are all normal household bills.

It’s not means tested the carers coming in is just a service for all who need it.

We really had to fight for it though wasn’t easy

Sorry 4K a month

That sounds like an interesting system
Here the state might provide carers coming in, or live in care, or residential care, based on need but it’s all means tested beyond an initial 4-6 week period

Although admittedly in my LA live in care is now quite hard to get funded, since residential care is normally cheaper

Yes I mean we are lucky to have what we get free of charge and it’s been great!

The live in care is also popular - seems a lot of people opt for filipino carers - the Alzheimer’s help line suggested that to us actually!

And the gp actually put us in touch with the local Filipino community and there are loads of carers available - seems to be a cash in hand thing though! Costing about 500 a week - Monday - Friday

There are also heaps of agencies offering what we need too

I really think at the moment all she needs is company I don’t think she’s actually bad enough to need a nursing home just yet !!

If any of us spend a night with her she is actually fine - although very confused of course

I do worry about her getting to bed alone at night and fear maybe she never even makes it to bed to be honest

Gawd it’s so hard to know what’s right

And it’s hard to be patient and wait for the system to catch up with her!!

I really think starting to pay for things like this just sets a precedent - when does it stop

Please do not employ someone on a "cash in hand" basis. Apart from the moral aspect of it, how will you make sure that the person looking after your mother is doing so properly? Do they have experience of working with people with Dementia? Who will cover their rest breaks? Who will cover if they are sick?