Lasting Power of Attorney - joint or not

[LadySherlock]

Sorry this is along post!

Our DF has been advised to set up LPAs as he has recently been diagnosed with dementia. We understand that the LPAs for health and welfare and for property and affairs need to be set up whilst he still has capacity to do this.

We currently have a problem as my DS and I have different opinions on how it should/could work. I completely understand that it is my DF's (the donor) decision as to how the attorneys are appointed. In discussions with our DF he says he wants us both to be attorneys but thinks it doesn't have to be both together (jointly) for everything. He understands this is just not practical.

My DS thinks we should be appointed jointly "as that is fair" and "everyone will know what is happening". I have explained that this is not practical and would put time constraints on us both and that we can have some method of communicating what transactions or actions have been taken. Also there may be times when we just physically can't both be there to deal with something. DS is OK with both having to be together every time we need to do something for DF but I am not. This is not just because of my family commitments/holidays etc but also because it can limit the access to accounts e.g. bank will not issue a debit card if joint attorneys so you cannot go and do the shopping for DF and pay by card. Also I believe that if appointed jointly that the LPA would become null and void if one of the attorneys was unwilling or unable to act (unless there was an instruction added to the LPA that the remaining attorney could act solely if this situation arose?)

My DS if appointed jointly, wants to draw £1000 out in cash and then keep that to pay for items/shopping for DF. Is that permitted for joint attorneys?Has anyone experience of doing it this way? I know receipts could be kept etc. Personally I prefer to pay by card/shop online etc and wouldn't fancy having large amounts of cash around the house or in my purse.

I'm concerned that the LPAs won't get done whilst we are at this impasse. I have suggested going to a solicitor but my DS says there is no need for that. DS has asked Citizen's Advice some questions about it, but won't tell me or our DF what they are, and does't seem to have had a response several weeks later (I got a response from them within 24 hours). I've also given her the OPG contact details but when I asked her if she would contact them with her questions to be able to move forward with this she just said "maybe". Has anyone else been in this situation and is there any advice you could give about anyone or any organisations where we could go to get help to move this forward?

I have asked DS if there is some reason she doesn't trust me and that's why she would prefer it to be joint for everything. DS says no to that. I have monitored DF's finances for several years and assisted with house/car insurance and energy providers to get best deals. Also, I've worked in finance for over 30 years so feel competent in dealing with someone else's finances.

I can't suggest anyone for advice except a solicitor, but you would obviously have to pay for that.

We went for 'joint and several' for my parents' LPAs for all the reasons you give - quicker, easier to act in emergencies etc.

If your DSis refuses to budge, you might still be able to get a secondary card on your DF's bank account to use for shopping - I had one on my DM's account even before we sorted LPAs.

My dad did joint and several for me and my sister, he trusted us both implicitly. I think your dh is overthinking it, and sorry to be brutal, with dementia you may have your hands very full in the not too distant future, so joint POA would be a royal pain in the ass.
Withdrawing a lump of cash like your dh is thinking just complicates things.
I used to carry 2 purses, 1 with my own cards and cash, and 1 with my dad’s, it worked well for me.

Apologies I read it as being you and your dh not your ds! In that case where you’re not living under the same roof as your sister, making it joint would really make life difficult

My stepdad set his up joint & severally and it was a god send as it meant both of us could concentrate on different things that needed doing. I think we would’ve struggled if we’d had to make every decision jointly.

I also have joint and several with my siblings.

Sorry, I don't understand. Why would you go to a solicitor? You have to come to an agreement with your sister. A solicitor would just charge you money to repeat what both of you are saying.

My sister and I had the same discussion and originally I thought like your sister - I think it was a control issue really. By that I mean I wanted to feel that I had a control over what was happening to my mum, not control over my sister. But eventually I came to the conclusion that it just wasn't practical for us both to be present all the time. To be fair although my mums dementia is moderate now, there aren't a lot of decisions to be made on your own. Carers, cleaners etc are things we both agree on. One of us takes mum to the doctors etc, and really you rely on the doctor, well, doctoring. I mean how often do you contradict the doctor. I did get my sister to promise, though that at the end of life, she would never make a decision without my agreement. Maybe your sister feels a bit like me. Maybe you could put something in writing between yourselves to put her mind at rest.

Jointly and severally is a good idea - if just jointly then if one of you is ill or in the worst scenario dies then the LPA couldn't be acted on.

I have joint financial POA with my brother for our parent who has dementia
It's worded we can each make decisions worth up to £500 by ourselves but over that it's joint. There have been issues with trust in the past.
We keep a spreadsheet & receipts for all expenditure whether it's by card or cash payments.

The problem is I don't know what DS's concerns/questions are. Maybe they are genuine concerns or possibly just a lack of understanding about how LPAs work in practice. I have just completed LPAs for both my DH's parents so feel I have researched the topic/process in depth to get to that point.

Do you and your sister live a distance apart OP, you mention her getting cash out to pay for shopping which makes me think she lives closer to your DF than you? I can see that if there is some distance it would be harder to meet up if it was needed.

My DF has recently started the procedure to give my elder sister POA over health matters, they did tell me but I got a copy of the paperwork through the post and a chance to object within three weeks (I'm quite happy with the arrangement thanks!) so as you've already found out, without agreement it probably won't progress much further. Having said that, my DH had POA for his parents and I don't think they told his siblings at all!

I'm not sure from your post whether you don't want POA at all, or whether it's just the everything-joint bit that you are not keen on, OP. It may be worth discussing it with your sister and a solicitor together as sometimes a neutral third party can help and you are both getting the same information at the same time.

Hope you can sort it out soon, OP.

So really, you're genned up but your sister isn't. Maybe she just needs time to catch up. Like I said my instinct was like your sister so maybe she doesn't really know what her concerns are. You just need to sit and talk through different scenarios so she can see how being joint would create problems. Show her this thread so she can get a feel what other people have done and why.

Hi op. I think you, your father and sister need to have a discussion together about how the poa would work- the appointees need to take into account the donars wishes and feelings and basically 'do as they would' regarding decision making.
If you can't come to an agreement regarding how the pla is managed whilst your father has capacity then he needs to consider alternative arrangements. Disputes after he loses capacity will be far more complex.

@Jellifer

My stepdad set his up joint & severally and it was a god send as it meant both of us could concentrate on different things that needed doing. I think we would’ve struggled if we’d had to make every decision jointly.

Yes, this - I set up my LPoA a couple of months ago and this is what the solicitor recommended. It means that if one of the attorneys is away or ill, the other can still make decisions. She told me that where attorneys are appointed just jointly, there had been problems. Jointly and severally is the way to go I think.

Have you read this about Powers of Attorney:

www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/money-legal/legal-issues/power-of-attorney/

DB and I were both attorneys for my DM. In practice I was miles away and DB dealt with all the banking (that took rather a lot of visits to the branch to sort out).

I think you need to sit down with DS and figure out what her concerns are.

If she's worried that you will fritter the money away, maybe agree to contact her to check she is okay with expenditure over £X. Email across bank statements. It might be possible to set up joint approval for online banking (not sure, but we have that sort of set up for the charity I am trustee of). Or maybe you have a current account that deals with most expenditure that you manage and a savings account that you both manage.

I think your biggest challenge might be to get the doctor to sign the forms- they have to be confident your DF knows what he is doing. Don't leave things too late.

I also recommend getting a Health power of attorney too. Elderly parents do have a tendency to want to please doctors and forget what they've been told.

Good luck

Sorry to butt in, but I have a related question. If your parents are both still living, would it be normal/unusual to name the donor's spouse as an Attorney, as well as the children? We're going to be looking into setting up a Lasting Power of Attorney for DFiL who's just been diagnosed with early stage dementia. However, DMiL is still very much with it. In the short to medium term, would it make sense for her to be the one making decisions, and therefore be included as a joint Attorney as well as the two children? Or could that cause problems down the line if she began to lose capacity? Would be good to know what's normal here. Thanks.

OP on your original question, we will definitely be looking to set up 'joint and several' PoA - I already have this with my DSis for my own parents, though we haven't had to use it yet.

my DPs have theirs set up to be the other one of them first, and then if/when they lose capacity, for it to move down to DB and I.

@cauldroncakes I see no harm in letting the spouse be named as an attorney too.

Just get it done before your father deteriorates.

One thing that caught us out was the need to be consistent with people's names and dates. Date everybody's signatures on the same day if you can and make sure they have a consistent name (so always use just one or all Christian names).

I think the Office for Public Guardian must had a performance metric that means they have to reply to a letter within 28 days as it took us months to complete the process.

DSis and I were jointly and severally attorneys on both health/ welfare and finance/property.

In practice it meant that we each led in our area of expertise, kept the other informed and could cover for each other where necessary.

If you trust each other and work well together, it works out to be really convenient.

Agree with above, if dementia has already been diagnosed, finding a friend of neighbour prepared to provide the certificate in the priority. Not ideal if a member of the family is not confident but your window to get the PoA registered will be closing pretty rapidly.

As someone who deals with this in a work capacity. I'd say jointly and severally is the way to go.

Jointly is impractical for both the attorney and for any professional who is dealing with an attorney and has to get consent from all attorneys in order to act on anything.

This is the reason why I rarely see just jointly ones.

Joint and several is standard. I can think of no reason for doing otherwise.

Along with my brother and my DM's financial person, I have POA for my DM. For myself I have set up a PsOA naming my daughters. All joint and several.

Thanks everyone, that's really helpful.

Thanks for all your responses and information. It sounds like jointly is really difficult to administer/work together, as I thought.

Joint and several for LPAs is healthy it means you can both see what is being arranged re finances or health and welfare but act separately as well

Do not go for joint or joint and together option meaning you both have to be present to make decision together, as you won't be able to internet bank and have to rely on both of you being available at the same time and visiting the bank in person. It's the one form of LPA people regret arranging - if one of you is away or unavailable you can't do anything about it as your hands are tied until you are both available