POA is it always ‘worth it’?

[Zolrets]

First, I know POA is essential in some circumstances but what I’m looking for is some advice in my situation.

My parents both set up POA with a professional will service. This was more my dad’s initiative than my mums. Each poa names me + a sibling (first named). Since then my dad died and my mums mobility has declined to a point where she is housebound. She is a bit naive and doesn’t understand her bills and paperwork so I do all the admin but she is cognitively all there. I also do everything else to feed, clothe, entertain her, maintain the property, maintain the garden etc etc . Other sibling hasn’t been seen for a year.

At the moment some Bill providers will talk to me as I am named. Shopping and cash wise I use her card. I know that’s not right but it serves it purpose.

I remembered the POA and mentioned it to my mum who says she doesn’t understand it, and isnt keen to change things. I got it out to have a look and I can see it says ‘mental incapacity’ not physical which won’t help me persuade my mum.

I’m wondering, in my situation with my mums issue being physical and some solutions, of sorts, in place, is it worth me rocking the boat and getting her to agree to be activating this? For example, if I’m talking to her broadband provider over the phone do I just say I have POA and they accept this? If I have send evidence in that makes me think it will still be an effort and less inclined to push on this. Also, the sibling named first, I’m pretty angry about the situation with them and don’t want to draw them in as they have been almost zero help to date. Can POA be used independently or will banks etc want both to verify things? Sorry it’s a long one. I hear so much about POA on here but it’s often in relation to dementia which I totally get, and it about physical mobility. I should add too that despite huge efforts, my mum can’t use any digital device.

You are right age does make a fool of us all 😔
Even so it doesn't have to be like this, we can all see how these things unfold and it's not right that the burden falls on adult children whose lives are already at full capacity!
as a society we need better strategies for managing later old age

I can’t see the benefit of starting from scratch unless you wanted to change the attorneys. How much of a role would your sibling want to play in practice? If the POA is set up “jointly and severally” then you don’t have to involve them if they’re not interested. Then again I wouldn’t advise having only one attorney as if anything happened to you then you’re basically back to square one.

@LemonRoses If it’s illegal to use a PoA when the person has capacity, then why does the form explicitly ask if the PoA is to be used when the person has capacity or only when they’ve lost capacity? Or are you simply saying you must make sure you have their permission to use it while they still have capacity?

@MrsFezziwig The other benefit of starting from scratch is if the PoA is set up to be used only when the donor has lost capacity, and they want to change that

From the www.gov.uk page on powers of attorney

“ Starting as a property and financial affairs attorney
The LPA may give you permission to make decisions while the donor still has the mental capacity to make their own financial decisions. If it doesn't, you can only start making decisions when they don't have mental capacity.”

[quote MereDintofPandiculation]@LemonRoses If it’s illegal to use a PoA when the person has capacity, then why does the form explicitly ask if the PoA is to be used when the person has capacity or only when they’ve lost capacity? Or are you simply saying you must make sure you have their permission to use it while they still have capacity?

@MrsFezziwig The other benefit of starting from scratch is if the PoA is set up to be used only when the donor has lost capacity, and they want to change that[/quote]
It is illegal (Mental Capacity Act 2015) to deny people the right to make their own decisions and there is a requirement to support people to do do.

They can allow you to act on their behalf but have the absolute right to change their mind. The power of attorney is donated and must be registered whilst someone has capacity in order to be legally effected after someone loses capacity.

If someone has capacity, they can say you can act on their behalf in whatever way they is choose. A signed POA form might be acceptable by many services. It doesn’t give you the right to make all decisions for them. If they wanted you to sort their bills out for them, that would be fine as long as you involved them. They are giving you administration rights not decision making rights - the two are very different.

There is no reason not to use a signed form to permit you to administer affairs with consent, but you can’t actually have LPA or make their decisions until after someone loses capacity.

@LemonRoses Agree with what you say except I'm having difficulty seeing how these two statements:

"The LPA may give you permission to make decisions while the donor still has the mental capacity to make their own financial decisions." [www.gov.uk]

and

"but you can’t actually have LPA or make their decisions until after someone loses capacity." [LemonRoses]

can be simultaneously true.

[quote MereDintofPandiculation]@LemonRoses Agree with what you say except I'm having difficulty seeing how these two statements:

"The LPA may give you permission to make decisions while the donor still has the mental capacity to make their own financial decisions." [www.gov.uk]

and

"but you can’t actually have LPA or make their decisions until after someone loses capacity." [LemonRoses]

can be simultaneously true.[/quote]
Because regulation is rarely a perfect beast.

The website does not reflect the law accurately. People with capacity always retain the right to make their own decisions. They can donate that to someone else but it can always be overridden by someone with capacity.

Perhaps I should be clearer. Someone with capacity can ask someone else to say, decide which cleaner to employ and to set up,contract, payments etc. At any point the person can say, no, I don’t like them and prefer to clean myself. That is their right. Even if the house becomes untidy or the stove is caked in burned food. Their decisions cannot be overridden if they have capacity and are not subject to a section under the MHA.

OK. So it is fair enough for my father and I to agree for me to manage his savings subject to parameters he sets, and it might include the freedom for me to move money from one account to another for better interest rates. But it would not be OK for me, without his knowledge or consent, to simply take the PoA documents to the building society and start managing his savings accounts.

That's a distinction that needed making and one that I didn't think about because it seems obvious to me that you wouldn't do it without asking, if your parent had capacity.

I've had LPA for a relative and it is indeed a convoluted and expensive process to get it activated - it took 13 weeks to go through the system pre-covid, and the week after Auntie died - I like to think she had the last laugh.
I have LPAs for finance and welfare for MIL but we are nowhere near activating. What we have done is:-
Change her current account to a joint so we both have cards;
Set up an iPad constantly on charge so that she can FaceTime me with 3 presses of a button (seems to communicate and understand better on FT than phone) although she uses the internet fairly confidently anyway);
Redirected post (with her agreement) to my house so I get to see all the bills etc;
She facetimes me to discuss her shopping, I order it on line from our account and she takes delivery;
We tend to sit over a cup of tea on a Sat afternoon and have 15 mins 'business time' where we sort out bills, repairs, etc. Then we actually state 'no more business, it's family time' and move on;
When dealing with companies on the phone, we put the phone on speaker and she goes through the ID requirements with me pointing at various codes, PINS etc, then she says "I'm going to hand you over to my DIL Mrs X who is here with me and can explain better than I can" and that usually does the trick;
I take a half day every few weeks to deal with all these calls etc.
But what has changed both our lives more than anything is her facing the fact that the house was too much for her and moving to a warden assisted flat. The flat cost as much as the house, and the service charge is expensive, but she is so much happier (and so busy!) and I worry much less, no stressing about if some shyster knocks on her door about a fictitious ridge tile missing on the roof etc.

I have the health LPA for one parent that was set up about 20-years ago but I have no idea if there is a financial LPA that someone else has or what the parent expects me to do.... or even if I should have agreed to it 20 years ago🤷

Me and my DSis have LPOA for Dad. He has capacity but no wish to deal with anything financial, so we (me mainly) deal with his finances. He has a debit card and spends what he likes, I monitor his account on online to make sure he doesn’t go overdrawn. If anyone phones him and anything to do with money, bills or contracts, he tells them his daughters have poa and talk to us.