POA is it always ‘worth it’?

[Zolrets]

First, I know POA is essential in some circumstances but what I’m looking for is some advice in my situation.

My parents both set up POA with a professional will service. This was more my dad’s initiative than my mums. Each poa names me + a sibling (first named). Since then my dad died and my mums mobility has declined to a point where she is housebound. She is a bit naive and doesn’t understand her bills and paperwork so I do all the admin but she is cognitively all there. I also do everything else to feed, clothe, entertain her, maintain the property, maintain the garden etc etc . Other sibling hasn’t been seen for a year.

At the moment some Bill providers will talk to me as I am named. Shopping and cash wise I use her card. I know that’s not right but it serves it purpose.

I remembered the POA and mentioned it to my mum who says she doesn’t understand it, and isnt keen to change things. I got it out to have a look and I can see it says ‘mental incapacity’ not physical which won’t help me persuade my mum.

I’m wondering, in my situation with my mums issue being physical and some solutions, of sorts, in place, is it worth me rocking the boat and getting her to agree to be activating this? For example, if I’m talking to her broadband provider over the phone do I just say I have POA and they accept this? If I have send evidence in that makes me think it will still be an effort and less inclined to push on this. Also, the sibling named first, I’m pretty angry about the situation with them and don’t want to draw them in as they have been almost zero help to date. Can POA be used independently or will banks etc want both to verify things? Sorry it’s a long one. I hear so much about POA on here but it’s often in relation to dementia which I totally get, and it about physical mobility. I should add too that despite huge efforts, my mum can’t use any digital device.

DH had POA for FIL who had all his faculties. It was helpful just to be able to contact banks, sky etc when it all got too much for FIL to bother with.
It also meant that when FIL ended up in hospital after a fall, DH was able to fully discuss things with the medical team.

In my experience, yes.
Watching the hoops my mum has to jump through when dealing with my grandparents affairs and finances and that’s with full POA and cooperation from my grandmother.
If the power of attorney already exists does your mum actually need to be involved? I’ve not had to do it myself so not sure how it works....

Financial poa active immediately. Welfare only when they lose capacity. Us the poa registered with the public guardian? If so contact the banks and arrange to send copies. You should get your own card as attorney for her account and keep records to show when you use it.
My partner has poa for his parents and now manages all their finances but should be transparent so noone tries to accuse you of taking money from her. Some places will accept your word for it but legally they shouldn't.

So yes they are very useful.

@Youdontknowwhatyoureonabout thanks - I think my mum is similar to your father in law. She’s not just immobile, she’s in pain and it’s all just too much for her to start doing stuff now that my dad did.

@Smartiepants79 the details on setting it up allude me! I don’t want to bully her in to things she isn’t ready for so I want, even if I don’t need, her full consent.

Thanks @Musicaltheatremum. I should have said, they set up both financial and health. It’s the financial one I’m interested in. There is a section on the document to be stamped by the public guardian and that is blank so I’m guessing it is not registered? Are there 3 steps here? 1) create 2) register 3) activate? I feel like I’m being a bit sun. The local carers association even did a zoom on this and I still don’t have it clear in my head.

The card sounds useful, again, I didn’t know about that. Thanks you.

and I’m not a bit sun (typo) I am a bit dim! Damn you autocorrect!

When I invoked my financial POA for my mum, I phoned the POA team for her bank and they were incredibly helpful - I needed to send them the certified copy of the POA and then I got a card and cheque book as 'CMOT, Attorney of MumCMOT' within 2 weeks. If you have an account with the same bank already it is easier as they have all the information to identify you.
If your sibling is difficult, it is even more important that you have all the finances totally transparent as you never know when they will kick off

I think if you phone the public guardian office they will help you. Just explain to your mum that the bank's won't let you help her if you don't have this. Takes a few weeks to register. My parents are fit and well in late 80s...dad still used to go to the gym until lockdown!!! He's 89. They registered them for our ease of helping them if needed.

It's incredbly useful.

My parents have POA for a family friend. She still has capacity for most decisions but doesn't understand implications sometimes eg catalogue debts.

When you activate a LPOA you don't use it for every decision necessarily. The guidance notes state that a person may have capacity for some things but not others or capacity might come and go. Old peole still have the right to make bad financial decisions eg my parents old friend has every right to fritter her money away on catalogue clothes but they stop her ordering on credit as she doesn't understand that she hasn't paid on her debit card.

It's your responsibility to ensure you carry out the persons wishes and don't take things out of their hands when they are capable of making decisions.

Regarding your sibling, the POA document should state whether you are authorised to take decisions jointly or severally (individually).
Broadly yes it is a case of 1. Create 2.register with Office of Public Guardian 3.activate
As your DM still has mental capacity, now is the time to check whether the current version still serves her needs or whether she’d rather redraw it, in light of the siblings non involvement. Get whichever version properly registered.
Normally to activate the POA with banks, utilities etc you would send them an original or certified copy, sometimes they will want your ID too. Post offices will certify documents for a fee if you don’t have any registered professional types handy.

It is well worth doing. A POA costs £82 at full price (can be less depending on the individuals circumstances). If you don't do one and then need to take control, it will be by way of Deputyship via the Court of Protection. You can easily be looking at a cost of £1k if a court hearing is needed, plus the need for an imdemnity policy plus ongoing annual fees. Also it is not a quick process.

It was invaluable in dealing with my dad’s affairs, if you’re already dealing with your mum’s affairs, you’d be as well having it. In my experience organisations were a mixed bag, on the phone most were happy for me to hand the phone to dad and for him to say he was happy with me dealing with them, and it was noted so no future issues, some wanted me to email photos of the document, and others (looking at you SANTANDER) were a royal pain in the backside and would only accept it after actual sight of a certified original document.

I know some of MN will be horrified at this, but if you’re doing stuff on the phone wouldn't be above just saying you are your mum

Definitely worth it IME. Get in touch with AGE UK. They will advise you. If you don't get it sorted out now, you run the risk of social services and the court of protection getting involved. Social services can be very helpful, of course, but you need to have a say in your mum's affairs. Elderly people are targets for conmen and scammers, you need to be in a position to protect her.

Agree that if you have you mums consent then sometimes it’s easier to just pretend to be her. Perhaps for things that are less sensitive and have her sitting right next to you while you do it.
I understand about the not bullying things but sometimes hard choices have to be made, we’ve had to be firm with my grandmother on occasion which is distressing but necessary.
Now is the time to act while she still has capacity, when she doesn’t, it’s too late.

Thanks for the info. I will try to persuade her to activate it. @BeastOfBODMAS I have checked the wording and it is indeed joint or severally. @CMOTDibbler good to know about the bank card, that’s exactly what I need. I dread any incident at the supermarket with the card as it could look like I’ve nicked it. Indeed, during lockdown, when my mum was first unable to get out (her loss of mobility coincided with shielding advice), her card was locked at the cash point as she gave me the wrong number! I was paying all her shopping until the bank happened to do a ‘welfare’ call and unlocked it.

If you don’t use the POA at the bank, you could simply be added, along with your sibling to your Mum’s bank account (with her authorisation).
You could have a three person account. This would give you your own bank card and internet access.

The second thing to check is, is it operational only when the donor (your Mum) has lost capacity, or can it be used when she still has capacity? It can be set up either way.

If you haven't got the OPG stamp on it, then it hasn't been registered. So you have the opportunity, if it's set up only to be activated when she's lost capacity, to start again from scratch and set it up so it can be used while she still has capacity - you can download the form from the OPG website and do it yourselves without a solicitor.

Step 2 is to get it registered with the OPG. Costs about £80 and takes a few weeks.

Step 3 is to activate it as and when with any financial organisation you want to deal with. You don't have to take over everything - my father looked after his day to day spending while I dealt with his savings accounts.

Capacity isn't an all or nothing thing. It's the capacity to deal with the decision in hand. You can have capacity to take one type of decision but not another. Or you may not have capacity on Tuesday but have it on Wednesday. Although you say your Mum is "cognitively all there" your description implies that she may not have the capacity to deal with bills and paperwork. Or she may have the capacity to deal with them with sufficient explanation or support.

Activating varies according to institution. Most will want to see the original or a certified copy (the Post Office offer a document certifying service - I don't know whether it extends to POAs). Some will accept a scanned copy sent by email - I've had that with insurance companies and utilities. A very few will accept your say so over the phone. They shouldn't do this - it makes your dealings with them more open to fraud by impersonation.

It's really useful, because not only does it mean, for example, that you can use her money to pay for her shopping, you can also talk to fuel suppliers if there's a problem (eg they've overcharged, or she's in credit and wants to get DD payments reduced) or if she wants to change to a cheaper tariff; you can talk to insurance companies on her behalf, telephone companies, the Council re community charge. An incidental benefit is that it means the difference between making phone calls at her house so she can authorise them to speak to you, and making phone calls at your house, where you can get on with stuff with the phone on loudspeaker while you're in the inevitable call queue.

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation @MereDintofPandiculation. The form says mental incapacity however your description of how capacity can vary covers the situation I am in. Just today I tried to call a company as I was there with her only to find that they have reduced their call centre hours to mon-fri only so I don’t know when I’ll next be able to be there on the relevant day and she isn’t able to handle this on her own so yes, that’s a lack of capacity although she is able to make her own decision on whether she wants to move contract etc.

You cannot enact a POA when someone has capacity still. That is illegal.
You can act on behalf of your mother with her consent, but she has an absolute right to change her mind, to do things you disagree with or which seem unwise.
If she has capacity she can let you help, but all decisions are hers to make.
Even if she has reduced capacity, the law requires that you or any else gives as much support as possible to allow her to make her own decisions. Taking away a right to self determination is a last resort and not to be entered lightly.
Not being able to handle a call centre doesn’t mean she lacks capacity; it means she needs some help.

You cannot enact a POA without registering it whilst she has capacity. If it’s not registered, it’s simply a piece of paper with no legal status. Make sure it’s registered before she does lose capacity otherwise you have to apply for deputyship which is more expensive, more difficult and needs ongoing administrative responsibility to the OPG.

The advice above isn’t correct, although many services will see a form signed and registered and not check for themselves that it is valid because the person lacks capacity.

Capacity is decision specific. There is rarely ‘no capacity’ and each decision needs consideration of the least restrictive option and best way to help people make their own decisions.

In your case, a signed letter from your mother would usually suffice.

@LemonRoses thanks so much for the responses. Oh my goodness, now I am confused!

I get the bit about registering - I definitely need to do that. I’m cross it isn’t done already as my Dad paid a shocking and embarrassing amount of money to get the preparatory paperwork done.

I am still confused about whether It is legally ok to enact the POA. In the first instance I had my doubts as the form does say ‘mental incapacity’. You seem to be saying that capacity is decision dependent. I can understand that however, having the POA doesn’t take away her ability to make a decision? So are you saying that unless she can’t make any decision I shouldn’t have POA or are you saying that I can get POA and she still makes decision and enacts them as and when she is able?

Where I was hoping POA would assist in (1) having a card for her account as she can’t do any shopping either in person or online (2) paying bills and negotiating contracts (she is on some terrible contracts) (3) pursuing investments gone wrong (set up by my late father). She is not capable of physically doing the shopping. She doesn’t understand contracts and she has no clue on the investments. She has a branch only bank account. I live an hour away, work full time and have a young child. I am often so stressed that I wonder how I can continue on. We seem to be having a pause from a health/house crisis at the moment so I’ve had the mental energy to revisit POA. First step is definitely to register, but next step, and the legitimacy there of, I’m still not clear on. As I said in my initial post, most instances I read on here involve dementia and it’s straight forward - @lemon I am not shooting the messenger - I can quite see how this might not be an appropriate use of POA!

Zolrets, please focus on your own well-being, it's not your fault that your parents have made such a mess of things 🙏

Miaicarisatia - thank you for your kind words. The irony is my dad did feel he was doing the right thing to sort things out. I think the problem is that age makes a fool of us all.

Register the POA now. You do not have to use it unless needed, and it does not override your mum’s right to make decisions while she has capacity, but when things get worse (which sadly is likely) you will need it and it will be ready and waiting.

“Pretending to be your mum” works fine until it doesn’t. I’m sure many of us (including me) have done it but obviously it is illegal.