Supporting spouse - PIL, dementia, controlling SIL

[Slugslasher]

Quick background info: We have been NC with controlling sil (csil) for over 15 years for multiple reasons having lived away (the latter 4 years, at the other side of the world). 20 months ago when H retired we returned about 40 minutes drive from pil’s home. H also has a B and N(ice) sil (nsil) who along with csil live 5 minutes drive from pil.

csil has always been extremely (joined at the hip) close to pil and has over decades been a toxic influence on them and her brother and his wife until eventually bil and nsil saw the light and went no contact with her also. Despite csil’s best efforts both sons aided by their wives (me and nsil) managed to maintain a loving relationship with pil. Pil tried to steer their ship through all the ups and downs of their fractured family relationship - appeasing csil (as she screamed the loudest) allowing her full control of their lives.

Csil was widowed tragically in her early forties with two young children (she is now 58). We as a family were very supportive to her when this happened but sil decided ‘that part of her life was over’ and wore her widow’s weeds with aplomb. As the years passed sil and pil’s lives became more and more entwined with pil heavily involved with childcare so csil could carry on working. As pil became older csil then gradually turned the tables until neither could live without the other and she became the support to them. Eventually pil could not make any decisions for themselves, ran everything past her, domination of them was complete. Both of her now adult children still live with their mother. Both are ‘odd’ neither have managed to maintain adult relationships; their mother was highly controlling as they grew up; both were very unpleasant to us, we assumed this was due their mother’s toxicity - we did not add flames to any fires. NC was our way of managing csil and her little family.

csil in my opinion, has serious mental issues. She catastophises everything. She has cried wolf so many times that we now do not react until we see first-hand whatever crisis occurs (usually a storm in a teacup). Her anxiety levels are sky high and her anger and jealousy at my Dh - (her brother) even higher. Mostly I think the fact we moved away from the area and dared to have a happy life beyond the narrow confines of her life has angered her. She is now trying to use her ailing parents as a tool with which to control us and her other brother and wife.

Fast forward to the situation today : Both pil are now 90 (fil) and 87 (mil). Both with memory problems both 100% reliant on her, who is now self appointed carer. She is paid by pil to be their carer and because there are no assets (social housing - no savings) we volunteered to top up her earnings to make up her ‘wages’ so that she wasn’t out of pocket. Csil will not countenance outside help, until both brothers forced the issue and a cleaner was brought in to lighten the load. Nsil and I do not get involved in any decision making but support the brothers in a weekly rota to help. DH and I go every Tuesday. He does the grocery shopping, I prepare and serve the main meal (lunch), prepare afternoon tea for them to serve themselves and do some light housework. Bil and nsil do the same on Sundays. Csil manages everything else. Fil is blind, confused, has a severe tremor and diabetes. He has insulin injected every day (by csil because she is an ex nurse and fell out with the district nurses). Mil is on a zimmer, struggling to walk, completely confused and does not recognise she is in her own home now. Csil refuses point blank to consider care home for either of them and is in the process of autonomously taking them into her own home. Pil will do as they are told and are under complete control of csil.

Both brothers do not agree that she should do this but she is overruling them and steaming ahead with it.

Epic story. Thank you for reading if you have stayed with it.

I am using this as a way of keeping check on events as they unfold and will welcome constructive advice how to handle the fallout when csil crashes and burns. I am seriously worried about her (as much as I do not like her). Nobody could cope with what she is insisting on taking on.

I will add that DH has been emphatic that he has not worked for over 46 years to become a carer. I offered to take father into our home (fog) to lighten her load but DH will not budge.

Currently financial assessments are being made and occupational therapists are assessing csil’s home. We are aghast.

I absolutely understand your reasons for doing what you have (and generously - I can't imagine many siblings would have done what you have). But presumably, that was when they weren't eligible for paid-for care. But as you say, you committed to it, and can't really back out now.

It’s not about the money. We think this will break her. Nobody could/should look after two vulnerable people with dementia on their own. She is insisting that she wants to. She wants to drag us all into her world. We are resisting.

Does your CSil live in the same neighbourhood as your PIL and come under the same Council? If they are different it's possible local SS might encourage your PIL to move out their area of responsibility if your Csil is insisting...
However, if they are both the same, the SS team will have met your CSil on several occasions by now and will realise her solution might not be the right one for all concerned. To be fair to SS they won't want to cause a big upheaval for your PIL if they see that CSil's health is about to implode and they will end up 'fixing' the problem twice. They will be able to see the exchange of messages on the noticeboard for themselves and realise that 2 x sons are also still playing a positive despite role the control of their sister. I'm willing the SS team on from afar. I think they hold the solution.

Yes both come under the same council. Thank you for your input @Fortysix. H engaged with authorities along with csil once mil could no longer manage the stairs for the upstairs bathroom. A fully funded wet-room was installed. Mil initially refused to use it and continued to strip-wash at the tiny corner sink in the room. Csil now assists her in the shower.

Further meetings with csil and social worker have been without brothers present. Csil is adamant ‘she can do it all’ she presents as coping and managing but we obviously can see she is struggling.

Siblings are meeting today (mil is poorly with a virus, csil has called out the doctor so not sure if the meeting will be postponed). Brothers were ‘summoned’ to the meeting to ‘discuss future plans’. Namely to be told what she is planning to do. Nsil and I have withdrawn our labour. Both Hs have been told NOT to volunteer our services if she decides to move them in with her. If she decides to go ahead we want both brothers to meet with social workers without csil so they can express their/our concerns. To be fair... the social worker only knows what csil has told them. SW is bending over backwards to facilitate the move (if this is the truth from what csil tells us - I am not sure about that). The recorded message from ‘Christmasgate’ will be used as evidence of upset and distress that pil suffered when csil was called out after fil transgressed and left mil alone when searching for chocolate. We also have a photograph of nsil’s face (scratches and bruised) when several years ago csil attacked her when nsil stood up to her other regarding an issue. The family swept that under the carpet to keep the peace.

I also have a note threatening me with the police for ringing her when I was trying to talk to her about a toilet issue earlier in the year. We are all worried that Csil is going to crack with the stress and strain she is insisting on putting herself under. She is capable of violence, I am not sure if she would with them, but she can scream and rant and rage - we all have witnessed that. They all appease her. I went NC 15 years ago to avoid confrontation. I want to keep it that way.

Maybe a brother should phone the SW team and ask to be included at the next 'family' meeting. This intervention may be what the SW team is hoping for and will help create a wider discussion beyond your CSil's agenda..
Regardless of whether MiL moves to her daughter's house or to a care home uprooting her to new surroundings will likely make her dementia worse initially. The SW team will be well aware of this and will already be weighing up the risks of the two options. My mum had to be sectioned as she became so agitated but no two cases are exactly the same. The SW team absolutely will have built up a picture of your Csil's determination and attitude over the last few years but will also have noticed the increasing stress. They also have a duty of care to her and will hopefully guide the outcome to what they believe is feasible and helps everyone.
Never having had POA for my parents I have no idea whether you CSil holds ALL the cards at the family meeting when decisions are taken, others will need to advise.
However, my hope would be that the SW team will suggest mother in law is sent to a care home sufficiently near that DFil can be taken to visit very regularly and actually spend long days with her. (They may require to take a charge over PIL's house.) Then maybe your Csil may get some well deserved rest and time to pick up the threads of her own life.
Fingers crossed for you all.

Sorry just read social housing so no idea then how the finances would work out.

Thanks @fortysix. Some good points made there. I do know that bil is adamant that they do not move into csil’s house after ‘ Christmasgate’.

As I speak (unless csil has cried off due to waiting for the gp visit) H is at his brother’s house meeting for discussions. It will be war if csil’s plans are thwarted. This is going to escalate either way. Fil too will not wish to be separated from mil and his wishes will need to be taken into consideration. He just wants the status quo and carry on regardless so he can live his life with everyone at his beck and call. He’s 90 - I don’t blame him.

Following sibling meeting it appears decision is made. Csil has not budged. She has said her brothers opinions will ultimately not count. Social Worker will only take parents’ wishes into consideration. They will not want to be separated they will go and live with her. “Over her dead body” will she allow them to go into a home.

Both brothers cannot fight the inevitable. Bil is contacting social worker for both brothers to at least lodge their concern for their sisters’ well being. Bil is angry H is sad and concerned. I and nsil will withdraw our physical support (we do not want to be under csil’s regime for our own reasons) and brothers (for now) are resolute they are not going to become carers for their (much-loved) parent’s.

We now all have to reshuffle the dynamics and resume life in a new way. (FOG is going to play a big part in it I fear).

Over her dead body” will she allow them to go into a home.

By the sounds of it, that metaphor may not be so metaphorical. What does happen when the whole thing collapses with her and they have to go into care at very short notice?

I suspect the answer will not be pleasant, but who, if anyone, holds a health and welfare power of attorney? And who holds the financial PoA, which I assume exists?

None of the above. Nothing is in place csil has ruled their
roost for years. I have been no contact with her and the brothers have been happy to let her until this particular shit is hitting the fan. No assets no money to argue over just the blessed responsibility now they are infirm and in need of help. PoA would not have been on their radar. (We have ours in place).

Oh Christ.

So how is your inlaws’ money being accessed by your sister in law? I get there aren’t a lot of assets, but presumably there are pensions, attendance allowance, maybe pension credit...? For example, who has applied for attendance allowance for your mother in law, and who s in receipt of it?

Your husband needs to either walk away completely and let the cards fall where they may (very hard) or at least find out how the mess can be dealt with when your sister in law finally collapses. If it’s being done by unauthorised use of debit cards then it’s a time bomb. By the sounds of it, your father in law at least might still be competent to draw up a PoA but your mother in law is likely to need a Court of Protection deputyship, which is expensive and painful.

Reflectant raises some excellent points there. We have just sorted out Financial PoA for my dad's bank accounts, even though he is still sufficiently on the ball to oversee things. We do actually have online access to his accounts but needed to make it all legal

This all sounds a terrible situation. It's well-nigh impossible to make changes to a family set-up that has been enabled for decades and everyone has (for their own good reasons) been operating according to their well-rehearsed roles. I don't blame you and your nsil for backing away. The bottom line is that you will probably just have to let this one play out and maybe step in and help salvage things (for your pil's sake) when (not "if") it all goes tits up.

Authorised (by pil) use of debit cards for shopping purposes and (agreed by pil and csil ) ‘wages’ drawn by csil after she gave up her paid employment and essentially by mutual consent, was employed by them to be their carer. We topped up her income so she was not out of pocket. When the financial assessment was done recently, csil was advised to do this legally and had to (she Informed us) fill in a form from the bank. - (I’m not not sure what as I wasn’t involved) but as far as I know this was done. Pil’s income, H and I have no idea, we are not interested to be honest. We have never been involved in any of this nor want to be.

We usually ‘help’ if any expenses arise that pil cannot afford and haven’t often had to be called up to step in. H has said we will pay to have house cleared, reparations paid (there is a greenhouse that needs to be got rid of) we do this out of love for them so that they have no worries. We are a loving family we try to help each other. We do not agree with the current situation but we won’t stick the boot in and let csil struggle with disposal of the house and contents considering what she is prepared to do. Her attitude to us is ‘her’ problem we never rise to her provocation despite her toxicity. I have learned to not feed her fire. H handles her with respect but is no walk over. Csil and we have been at arms length for years. The current situation has brought us into each other’s vicinity. She thought she could bully us into her way, she now knows she can’t. Funnily enough lately, now that we have stood up to her, her manner has softened , she has lessened the nastiness and is icy as opposed to toxic. We are concerned for her but our main concern is for pil’s welfare. The current situation is in my opinion postponing the inevitable crash that will happen further down the line. Once they move in with csil I am ‘out’ and H will visit them on his own. He will not become carer he has made that clear.

Bil and nsil are both angry because they think (as they live close by) they will be expected to be ‘on call’ whenever csil needs them and they don’t want to be. Historically they have been called upon (now on a daily basis) and they are sick and tired of it. He is working flat out and never gets down time. Csil has been told by both brothers, her expectations of them when she does this is NIL. She has acknowledged this but is intent on carrying on.

This is after a sibling only meeting? Has either brother actually spoken to a social worker recently?

Sorry pressed too soon. If both PIL don't have POA then the social workers will have to play a bigger role and an advocacy officer could be called in surely? The SW team hold the purse strings and control the additional resources. I don't think CSil can actually do all this without POA if the brothers and F-i-l out number her...

Authorised (by pil) use of debit cards for shopping purposes and (agreed by pil and csil ) ‘wages’ drawn by csil after she gave up her paid employment and essentially by mutual consent, was employed by them to be their carer.

Using someone else’s card (ie, your name not on the card) is always a breach of the terms of a bank account. If anything goes wrong
She won’t have a leg to stand on.

Employing people off the books is a recipe for disaster. Is your sister in law making Class 3 National Insurance contributions or obtaining credit as a credit? If not, she won’t get a full state pension. Is she making over 11k? She should be paying tax. Is she claiming means tested benefits? And so on, and so on.

There has been no contact with sw recently with brothers. Csil has informed us that she told SW that her brothers disagree with her decision. Csil has handled that side of things once she made her autonomous decision to take her parents into her home. Bil works roundthe clock and H’s stance was it was pointless getting involved whilst siblings disagreed on the way forward. He wanted an ‘agreed’ family solution to the problem before going to sw for assistance.

Brothers are now trying to contact sw to lodge their concerns now that csil has made her autonomous decision. H did not want warring siblings at any meetings. I Wish he had stepped in sooner but we are where we are. You can imagine... things are tense in our household. I am not actively involved and brothers are getting to grips with it all after years of ‘leaving it all up to her.

No idea about your points@Fortysix. I think all these things were pointed out to her at the financial assessment. All these ’arrangements’ were between pil and her about 18 months ago - it is only now the authorities have been involved that this is coming to light.

She has worked since she was 16. I think she has more than enough contributions for her state pension (if she paid a big stamp as it was in her days). She tells us she draws her occupational pensionn her 60th birthday. I think she gets a widow’s pension too. To be honest her own financial circumstances are not on my radar.

But the implications of being party to paying her cash in hand might become your husband’s problem.

....and.... after all this she was recently ranting that she has not had a wage increase in three years and because of the increase in demands and the hours she puts in “ earns less than a shelf stacker in Pound Stretcher”.

She knows how to turn the screws with emotional blackmail.

We are up against it dealing with her.

I had assumed that csil held both financial and welfare POA.
If both P-i-l hold diagnoses for memory problems/ dementia and don't hold capacity, then it is my understanding that the SW may step in and overrule a family member in exceptional circumstances, especially if she is 'forcing' father-in-law to sign paper work when he has no or limited capacity. I'm absolutely not an expert in this but I'm pretty sure SS can obtain court orders to bring people to a place of 'safety'. Others will be able to comment further. Honestly I think if p-i-l have a named social worker, the social worker will be hugely relieved at the brothers getting in touch.

Tell your DH warring families are an every day occurrence for the SW team.
If the local SW has invested resources on a downstairs 'wet room' they may have a view on CSil deciding to 'give up' that facility if she cannot offer her blind father something similar. They would want to satisfy themselves that both parents' mobility issues were met for starters.
Personally I don't think SW will let it happen.

That’s the least of our problems @ReflectMonatomsm. But noted. I am at pains to mention that to a distraught H.

@Fortysix you have a good point when we talk to SW because csil told us when they assessed her house that her bathroom could not be fitted with grab rails and the floor was slippery when wet. Also I am puzzled because there is a bedroom for fil but mil is going to share a downstairs bedroom with csil. Alarm bells are ringing there.

...the wet room is for mil. I predict her mobility will cease imminently. Fil although blind manages perfectly with his own personal care.