Article on Toby Young's west london free school - I don't understand admissions

[PollyParanoia]

Ok article is here from yesterday's standard.
I do find all this stuff about "we want a school with high standards" a bit strange - is there anyone head or parent who actively wants a crap one?
But my main question is one of admissions. It says that the site is 3 miles from Toby Young's house. Presumably that would mean that his four children wouldn't get in if it's done on catchment. Is this the case? If true, it seems strangely admirable and altruistic of him to be doing all this hard work. I suppose I should be applauding his philanthropy rather than assuming he wants an education he can't afford to pay for...

And yes, gramercy, I think from what I've read, I'd love my DCs to attend such a school. However, I recognise that the existence of such schools would allow me to flex my reasonably well-off, middle-class muscle to make sure MY DCs benefit, and sod 'yours', as it were.

That is not the way I want our society to evolve. Ultimately it impoverishes us all, certainly spiritually if not financially.

sorry x-posts with ampere - sure you're right that it's wrong to lump together all ethnic groups as potentially lower achieving.

frogs, I would like to know the differences between the way this new school will be set up and Mossbourne. Mossbourne had a terrific architect and doubtless a very experienced project team including an educationalist among others. Does anyone know how a group like this one setting up a new school devises an education vision and a curriculum? How is the set-up funded? There's so much about it I don't know.

There are several other academies that have tried to reproduce the Mossbourne formula, but none are quite as successful, and one (according to the grapevine) becoming a school to avoid. All have shiny new buildings, so it can't be that.

I think a lot of it is down to a particular head/chief exec's ability to inspire and manage the pupils and particularly the teachers. Witness the speed with which things can go downhill when there's a change of headship.

Several other academies in Hackney, I meant.

Obviously academies in other areas will have their own issues that may make them not entirely comparable. And academies that are basically just a rebranding of an existing failing school with the same staff and pupils are clearly a different animal entirely.

Still, it is encouraging to see that it is possible to achieve the kind of thing the Acton group are after, but clearly not in a way that is easily bottled or reproduced.

I think the jury's still out, but proactive enthusiasm has to be a good thing, overall.

Hmmm, but I believe Mossbourne excludes at the drop of a hat, leaving others to pick up the pieces for children with SEN/EBD etc...

Though of course, it should be admired for what it has achieved - Ampere, it's not ethnicity but class I think you are describing. Although I think Mossbourne still has a vastly challenging intake (compared to many schools), they are not short of educated parents (of various ethnicities). Lots of very successful schools with challenging intakes out there - not all academies!

Though I worry. With all the funding cuts, it's very difficult for schools to maintain high standards (low class sizes, excellent teachers) I think. It really disturbs me how we expect to give a good education without providing the proper funding. So schools are being forced into jumping through hoops (specialist status, now Academies) in order to get the money they need. Ridiculous.

I hope Toby Young's school is a success.

Yes, I have heard that too, re the SN exclusions.

You're right Adair and Frogs, enthusiasm should be commended rather than my knee jerk scepticism since it's a lot harder than just paying out for private education.
But there's an article in the guardian today which questions SEN admissions for new academies which I suppose reinforces my query about admissions at W London free school. You cannot have 100% GSCE success with a truly inclusive school. This is the whole issue with league tables that they reward the ends and not the means.
My dc's children's primary is v inclusive, which is great. However, it does mean that it educates a disproportionate no of SEN and free school meal kids etc, etc. I want my dcs to be in this mixed environment but I'd rather they had a proportionate mix rather than taking on the ones that the local faith schools avoid taking on (and then show off about their sats results...)

At the risk of looking like I'm harassing you for every opinion you express, Polly (and I'm not, I promise!) there are plenty of faith schools that have more than their fair share of SN and non-native speakers and do very well with them. I have dc in one such school, which is very much the non-fashionable option locally (in comparison with the sought-after non-faith school in the catchment area of million-pound plus houses.

Just wanted to throw that into the mix.

And I think anecdotally there are stories about the intake of some of the other schools in the Mossbourne catchment (including at least one faith school) being significantly skewed (not in a good way) by the popularity of the new academies.

Argh. The whole thing is such a mess, and no obvious single good solution.

I agree. I hope it is a success but I rather think they'll fall flat on their face when they realise what inclusive education means (i.e not 100% GCSE as you say). Am sure they will use their 10% selection 'allowance'. Not sure what Toby's problem is, if 40% of kids got A-C then surely his kids, could too - if capable? I'd be more concerned with value-added really. And tbh if there are children getting 9 As - then no problem. It's very difficult for children to get stellar GCSE grades if they only learnt English a year ago...

Anyway, I am all for scrapping all exams and instead relishing learning for learning's sake. All welcome - and we'll cater for all SEN. Anyone want to start a school with me?!

I quite agree Frogs that there are many non-posh faith schools, we've got an outstanding C of E school near us that no middle-class pupil seems to go to, but in some areas it has been shown that the proportion of kids on free school meals at oversubscribed faith schools is far lower than its surroundings. Ditto grammar schools. Basically combination of selective plus oversubscribed equals skewed intake.
Adair, what is 10% selection allowance? Is that for your musically aptituded etc? Or is it for offspring of founding committee members? I still want to know if the Young children etc are going to get places.

I think Academies were allowed to admit 10% under selection (so yes, music aptitude or whatever). Not sure if that's still the case.

I don't think it is all about money or for that matter about size of class- my GS was hopelssly underfunded compared to DB's SM BUT of course, what my GS had was selection, the ability to exclude (off to the SM!) and, crucially, via an academic test, DCs well able to keep up in classes of 30 as we were pretty much of of a level.

You'll find that in our 'top' academic private schools, too. A disciplined, motivated class of similar, reasonable ability DCs with a goodish teacher will make good progress with 30 DCs in that class (ask the now-gone xenia!). Small classes are needed where there is either a large ability spectrum; SN DCs at either end of the academic scale in the class; ill discipline or average teaching. Or a combination.

We fear selection thus officially reject it in the UK state system, but it happens anyway but in an unregulated way via private education, middle class enclaves, tutoring, the tooth and nail preservation of grammars (as long as our own DCs get in!).

We say we want an 'all admissions' school as long as our own DC isn't compromised by having the under-supported SN DC in their class, the un-confronted disruptive bully, the unsupported non-English speaker. Once these 'elements' are introduced to a main stream classroom, yes, you need much more money to improve every child's education in that environment. I wonder whether what the government is hoping for (and perhaps encouraging via convoluted admission criteria and ease of exclusion) that school's like Toby's will take the middle-class, school-ready and able out of the 'bog standard' comps. OK, this will constitute a small number of DCs in the Big Picture but we have a proven track record of tolerating a small elite dominating our political and business life AND it will keep middle class Tory voting parents on-side.

Hijack alert: Xenia has gone? What happened?

I hope that the founders do get a place for their dc. The alternative is that they send them to private school, and everyone turns on them saying, "Why do you think that your free school is not good enough for your own children"?

Xenia's been posting normally for the last few days. I can't imagine anything ever causing her to flounce.

Sorry! Hadn't seen a xenia post for ages!

But I do recall her saying that her DCs who are/were at top academic schools in London (Hab Dabs, NLC) had class sizes of 25 cos the DCs were all bright and could all keep up.

Re the founders getting places for their DCs- SHOULD already advantaged parents REALLY be allowed to use public funds to enshrine their OWN DCs superior future prospects? At least private parents ARE effectively paying twice!

Yes I agree Ampere - admirable though all their hard work is, I'm not sure that the free school founders are really doing it for the public good. Which is the problem with parent-promoted schools - that their work will run out when their children leave. Parents (including myself) are mostly shockingly selfish, hence the phrase "I must do what's best for my child" usually being synonymous with "so screw you".

25 is small though!

Ampere, that may be the case for you but I do want inclusive schools, and I want my dc to go to them. If dd is slightly compromised because a child who doesn't speak English/has a SEN needs a bit more time, well, that's a fair sacrifice in my book. I kind of think, well, those children could be MY children and deserve all the support they can get.

Though I do accept some of my optimism is because dh and I have taught in a variety of comprehensive schools (challenging and otherwise) and so have seen lots of children succeed and be happy through the system. If I was just relying on the media, I'd probably be terrified too.

You kind of hit the nail on the head, albeit inadvertently, adair-

..." If dd is slightly compromised because a child who doesn't speak English/has a SEN needs a bit more time, well, that's a fair sacrifice in my book. I kind of think, well, those children could be MY children and deserve all the support they can get".

But they often DON'T get that help, do they?

I too am all for 'inclusion' BUT I am sure you also recognise that having a severe SEN/ADHD/appallingly parented DC in your DD's Latin class might do rather more than compromise your DD's education 'a bit'!

Really, it has been shown that DCs almost invariably do better academically when working within a fairly narrow ability band, particularly in Maths, foreign language and science. It doesn't matter whether the DCs concerned are rich, poor, white or non-white, it's being of an ability to access the taught lesson that counts, surely?

What I think Toby and all are naively thinking is that by setting up their own school, they'll end up with neat rows of school-ready, clever middle-class children reciting Latin vocab; they imagine that inevitably the token non-clever, potentially disruptive and/or SEN DC will somehow suddenly 'see the light', influenced by their own marvellous offspring and come onboard.

Ok, if my dd is SEVERELY compromised because a child with severe ADHD takes up MOST OF the teacher's time, well, I still think those children could be MY children and deserve all the support they can get. You may not agree, but that is how I feel. I don't believe the most important thing in life is for my dc to do well academically - though I certainly don't think they will be precluded from that anyway.

But of course, children who need support, need support! That tends to be more money - (for smaller class sizes, more TAs, better qualified teachers).

As I have said, I have taught in v challenging Inner London schools so maybe am a bit more reassured that it is not the hell-hole you are picturing. Just because a child has ADHD does not mean they cannot be managed in a classroom - they can.

Agree totally with your last paragraph. And discipline too, last I heard Tories were thinking of introducing people from the Army (who'll do what exactly?!).

Of course one's severely ADHD etc DC 'deserves all the support they can get'. No one's saying they don't.

And I genuinely admire you for your belief, if I understand you correctly, that you would be prepared for your own child to do less well academically than she might otherwise because the teacher cannot meet her needs because they are spending that time attending to the greater needs of a severely more challenging child.

Personally I feel that if that were the case for my DC and their education, I would not feel so altruistic.

I have said I am all for inclusiveness- but I would question exactly how MUCH inclusiveness I would - well, tolerate IF the price were my DC's educational achievement. University Admissions generally don't take any notice of the reasons why a DC hasn't 'made the grade', however well-meaning!

('neat rows reciting latin vocab'

[shudder] flashback to double latin on tuesday afternoons [heartsink]

those poor sodding children tbh!)

Yes, it's interesting what a 'certain class' of parents consider a 'good, rounded education', isn't it?!

Been thinking, and I think the reason I feel I can 'sacrifice' my dd's education is well... I don't really think it IS a sacrifice.

I don't think my dd would particular suffer academically, though yes, if I had to choose I would rather her mix with a variety of people in inclusive education than get a string of As in a segregated system.

I don't think it is as bad as you think. Yes, I have seen rubbish lessons where no-one was getting taught very much. Not sure it was the fault of the pupils, rather the inadequate teacher (most schools have one or two... ). In any case, think it is good life experience to deal with such a situation. (Would love to see those teachers kicked out, if only to make our profession more well-regarded. Though they'd probably just escape to private. JOKE).

In most lessons, children learn. So not sure where the huge disadvantage is? If a child is capable of getting the grade and are putting the work in, they will get the grade regardless of the other children. The children who predominantly miss out from the lessons I have seen (not the scary imagined ones in the media) would be the children who actually need the support that is not being provided, not the top-achieving ones with the supportive parents.

But yes, I am fundamentally inclusive. I can't really see how selection works for society. You take away the brightest kids - leaving everyone else to muddle through. So do you allow the hard-working-but-low-ability kids in? What about the highly educated but only came to the UK two years ago so can't speak/write English? And what about children who are very bright but have ADHD - are they allowed in?

Or are you proposing a ton of different schools for different needs?

I just don't really understand. Can't we all just get along?