Asian languages generally and how diff is Japanese?

[ZZZenAgain]

The background is that dd is a) language nut (speaks Engl, German, Russ, is learning by choice Latin and Italian) and

b) she is mad, absolutely mad on all things Asian and would like to learn an Asian language.

I think she (we) have enough on our plates atm but I'm weighing it up in my mind.

I think Chinese is too difficult with the tonal base (rising, sinking inflections etc, perhaps she at 9 given enough exposure could learn it, I don't think I ever could). I suppose Chinese would be more "useful" since more widely spoken than Japanese. Am I correct in thinking they use basically the same characters but that Japanese is easier (hopefully) because not a tonal language?

I actually have no idea. We might possibly be moving long-term to Singapore for dh's work so I suppose Chinese makes sense in that context.

Other language/culture she is strongly attracted to is Korean.

Does anyone have any experience, advice about these language choices (Chinese,Japanese,Korean)? I'm not sure if it is worth embarking on in terms of cost and time unless she can realistically reach a reasonable level of fluency and get some kind of practical use out of the language (needing to communicate, reading, work or study at some point).

Sorry very waffly , just chewing it over at this stage. NOt generally feeling that enthusiastic because I'm a bit tired of all the language learning etc however willing to consider it if she stays keen.

A well timed thread for this household, thanks! DD is obsessed with learning Japanese and really into Manga etc.

Things have been so hectic I hadn't been hugely encouraging but think I really should be. Would love to get my hands on the DS game but looks as if that's going to be a bit tricky.

When people talk about learning Chinese here they normally mean Mandarin, which is basically the standard form of Chinese used as the common language throughout China (and Taiwan and Singapore) for education and other official purposes - in mainland China it is called putonghua (common language), and in Taiwan it is called guoyu (national language). Most people in China are bilingual in Mandarin and their local dialect, eg Cantonese, Fujian dialect etc.

Cantonese is as different from Mandarin as, say, German is from English, if not more so, so speakers of Mandarin and Cantonese cannot understand each other, but they can read the same things (Chinese characters have the same meaning in all the dialects, but different pronunciations).

And about Japanese - people are pretty forgiving of foreigners getting the register wrong, and I am sure would be even more forgiving of a foreign child getting it wrong. It's hard to learn without living in Japan anyway, and then you pick it up fairly naturally.

At your DDs age, and not living in any of the relevant countries, she is not going to become fluent any time soon - but if she really put her mind to it, she could start getting a basic grasp of Chinese, for example, with a lesson or two a week, plus CDs/computer programs/games. I'm sure it would help if you got involved too, but if she is a determined kind of child, she might be able to do it solo. It would certainly give her a head start if you do end up moving to Singapore.

I see , thank you very much.

So I will look into what is available and what language learning material is available for English speaking dc learning those 3 languages and see what comes up. I think there will be limited choice for Korean.

Good luck with it Wynken. If I find anything aimed at dc learning Japanese , I will let you know.

dd is off sick today and since she is currently reading a story set in Japan, she is busy finding out all about modern day Japan, so there you go. Up till now, she really only knew about Samurai, Zen and liked the artwork, bridges, temples etc. We will do a week or two looking at modern life in Japan, China and Korea and I think she can decide what she wants to do re language.

I just know from Italian how hard it is to find material aimed at child learners where there is such a wealth of material for French/Spanish. This is what puts me off Korean tbh along with the fact that short of living there, she will probably never use it.

does a woman always have to speak up to a man in Japanese, even if he is younger than she is?

sorry to ask so much, just curious

wynken, how old is your dd?

No, women don't have to speak 'up' to men - it's more to do with age, status, position in company hierarchy, customer/client relationships etc. Most of the time in normal, polite conversation with people you are not related to or very close friends with you just use standard polite Japanese and there is no particular reason to use honorific forms (though there is normally a tendency towards self-deprecation). You would probably up the politeness levels a few notches with teachers, older relatives of friends etc. The real need to pay attention to status-related language is in business situations - not an issue for your DD for a while yet, I would assume.

There are general differences between women's and men's Japanese a lot of the time, though - different words for 'I', different choice of verbs for some things, different particles used at the end of sentences etc. But I could never bring myself to sound ultra-feminine (or do the high-pitched voice a lot of women use in formal situations). I guess I just came across as a bit butch....

lol, actually sounds like you have a very good grasp of Japanese. I had no idea how involved it is. People from these linguistic backgrounds must find English extremely limited by comparison.

Given that Mandarin is being taught increasingly in British schools (especially in the independent sector I believe) you may find that there's more stuff available for children now.

Thanks ZZZ. She's 11. I'm not well atm but as soon as I'm better I'll crack on with it. Hope your DD is better soon.

that's a good point BIWI. Will have a look tonight online.

Wynken, she's alright, just gunged up and phlegmy, nasty cough. Needs a bit of quiet and rest I think, nothing dramatic but I don't think she could have coped well with a full school day. Hope you feel better soon.

I thought if your dd was a bit older she might be able to do Japanese with the OU but she may be a bit young for that. Or with an online HE programme, if there is such a thing for Japanese.

Have learnt quite a bit from this thread already, actually starting to quite fancy the idea of learning one of these languages myself... not chomping at the bit but my interest is sparked. Thanks again everyone.

We have had a very good experience using Rosetta Stone (for an 11 year old) - this is a software using voice recognition. It is fairly expensive but extremely effective and, for most people, really fun to use. They do offer Korean, as well as Mandarin and Japanese and if you go on their website, you can look at a demo and even take a 24-hour free trial.

I am very impressed by your daughter - she sounds like a very unusual child!

I must be the only one.. but I found Japanese grammar extremely logical... and the pronunciation is so simple, unlike any chinese language.
She is young, so learning all the kana won't be too taxing- it will just be like learning a code or runes or hieroglyphics to her.

I have also used rosetta stone (for swedish) and would say it is v expensive, but DH found it extremely easy to use, me less so, mainly because they never actually say what word they're teaching you (in english) so some of the words are a little confusing (eg a pic of a single dog which was small... but I couldn't figure out if they were teaching the word 'small' or 'single'... v difficult). He is a much more visual learner (it's all pictures) and I like text, so it suited me less.

My DD1 learnt Japanese at school - started in yr 8 and carried on up to A-level. She really enjoyed it because of the way it was taught - i.e very formally, teaching all the alphabets & grammatical forms. (She really hated French, which was taught in a more informal manner, hence she never got the hang of the rules). If your DD is a language nut, then she may find the formal approach v different to how she has learnt her other languages.

My DD1 is very keen on Anime (Japanese cartoon films) and spends her spare time putting English subtitles on to the more obscure ones which have not been translated. Your DD may find it useful practice (if she does learn some Japanese)to watch some Anime as it provides a source of Japanes to listen to.

If you are going to Singapore, most International schools study Mandarin from age 7.It would help if she knew a little, though not essential because they have new people starting all the time.

that's interesting 3 kids, I didn't know that. In that case if she would in any case have to learn Mandarin if we move there, it makes sense to learn that language really. I didn't realise it was a compulsory subject in the international schools. Thanks for that.

Summer, I looked into Rosetta Stone briefly when dd began Italian but I decided on something else (bit more playful and specifically geered towards German speaking children in Italian schools - German minority in the north). Good to know that Rosetta Stone have Korean, Japanese and Chinese and that they are appropriate for dc too. Wasn't too sure how the system worked when I looked at their demo. Will have another look. Thanks.

Hadn't thought about a different approach seimum. so much to think about. So they teach Japanese a bit like Latin then. Not sure tbh how much my dd would flourish at that. She might, she might not. She is very different to me and I cannot always judge how she will take to things. I think it is true she will enjoy learning the characters. She likes Yugi-Oh (or something similar) but she isn't keen on girly type anime, may grow into it though. Sounds like your dd is having a blast with Japanese!

hmm I have found both Japanese and Chinese for children as courses from September. So have a bit of time to mull it over. Great tips/advice though everyone.

If you want to try a language that has the same alphabet you could try Bahasa Malay also spoken in Singapore very easy to learn as it is phonetic.

Can I just say I think your DD is super cool and smart? -- do pass that on to her!

Mandarin, definitely, at least to start with. And especially if your DD is musical. Double that because you may be moving to Singapore. The grammar is dead simple, so speaking is easy -- it's learning to read that's the big deal, but memorising the characters will do wonders for her memory skills in general.

She could then easily branch out into Japanese later, perhaps at university.

BTW East Asian languages are thriving at university level in the UK, and there is more and more demand for them from all sorts of employers a great thing to encourage her to think about doing as a career.

(Oh, and yes -- Bahasa Melayu is easier still; written in Roman script and easy grammar!)

I studied Mandarin up to A Level equivalent, self-taught myself a bit of Japanese and am from Singapore.

I would say Mandarin. Make sure it is not Cantonese.

I still have a soft spot for Japanese. The kitschy wacky culture is hugely appealing. But if you have your practical hat on, that just pales in comparison with just how useful Mandarin is. I work in global firm where bright young lawyers are a dime a dozen. But combine that with Mandarin language skills and a bidding war breaks out.

I attend an elementary Mandarin language class at my workplace (to keep my rusty language skills ticking over). The other students picked up Mandarin from scratch in young adulthood. Their tonal pronunciation is acceptable - I am most impressed.

ZZ, your dd will have lots of fun!

Bahasa Melayu/Bahasa Malay I will look up today when I get the chance. Is this language related to Mandarin? Thanks for that. Should think that is a language that we could not really learn unless we were on the spot though. Will keep it in mind.

So I spoke to the woman who teaches Japanese from September, she was just lovely and I asked her lots of questions about the difficulty and working at home etc. She is Jpaanese herself. I called the place where Mandarin is being taught and they seemed to think it is all quite straight forward and she will have no problem with it. So if she decides she would like to try either, we will have a go at it from September.

That's encouraging blueshoes! I am reading a history of Japan atm inspired by dd and finding it very interesting. Looks like she will probably be doing Mandarin though, going on all the very helpful comments on the thread

Thanks again everyone.

ZZ, Bahasa Melayu/Malay is completely unrelated to Mandarin, Japanese or Korean.

It is the language spoken by Malays (the indigenous race) in Singapore and one of the 4 official languages of Singapore. I don't know it but understand it is Very Easy to learn - romanised, consistent pronunciation, simple grammar. It is not particularly steeped in culture and your dd won't have much use for it outside of Singapore/Malaysia.

It is probably fun to learn it whilst in Singapore and for a linguist like your dd, a cinch to pick up.

thanks blueshoes, have learnt a lot on this thread.

WynkenBlynkenandNod, just wanted to let you know about GenkiJapan.net. Maybe your dd would like it for learning Japanese.

here

but I warn you it goes through your head all day that number song, others on the links on the left.