Asian languages generally and how diff is Japanese?

[ZZZenAgain]

The background is that dd is a) language nut (speaks Engl, German, Russ, is learning by choice Latin and Italian) and

b) she is mad, absolutely mad on all things Asian and would like to learn an Asian language.

I think she (we) have enough on our plates atm but I'm weighing it up in my mind.

I think Chinese is too difficult with the tonal base (rising, sinking inflections etc, perhaps she at 9 given enough exposure could learn it, I don't think I ever could). I suppose Chinese would be more "useful" since more widely spoken than Japanese. Am I correct in thinking they use basically the same characters but that Japanese is easier (hopefully) because not a tonal language?

I actually have no idea. We might possibly be moving long-term to Singapore for dh's work so I suppose Chinese makes sense in that context.

Other language/culture she is strongly attracted to is Korean.

Does anyone have any experience, advice about these language choices (Chinese,Japanese,Korean)? I'm not sure if it is worth embarking on in terms of cost and time unless she can realistically reach a reasonable level of fluency and get some kind of practical use out of the language (needing to communicate, reading, work or study at some point).

Sorry very waffly , just chewing it over at this stage. NOt generally feeling that enthusiastic because I'm a bit tired of all the language learning etc however willing to consider it if she stays keen.

I personally think it would be worth it anyway, just for the sake of having her horizons widened. If she is a language nut, she might enjoy it on an intellectual basis, just seeing how languages work.

My Mum is like that: she has probably studied some 30 languages in her time, some to a very high level, some to a more basic level, but they have all helped to enhance her understanding of how languages work.

I picked up and put down several languages at that age, and some have come in useful in unexpected ways later.

see what you mean Cory, I suppose I am fighting my own lethargy a bit on this one and wondering how much input would be required from me.

Somehow I feel it is too late in the day for me to start learning an Asian language alongside her. If she could do it without my involvement (beyond organisational aspects) and if our life wasn't already quite so full packed with activities and things that require daily practice...

Ok will keep it on the back burner for a bit as a possiblity. Might get a dvd or cd song thing just to listen to the language then, if I can find anything like that.

Any ideas re language: Chinese, Japanese, Korean?

Japanese: she loves Pokemon (sigh), Mangas and all that stuff
Chinese: apparently she loves everything about it. She has done a workshop of ancient China already and loved it
Korean: mainly I think she loves the flag with the Yin/Yang symbol and the characters on the outside. I don't think she knows much about Korea beyond that and the fact my dad is a Korea nut and always rambling on about it.

Well, make it a deal: you learn it, but you learn it on your own and take responsibility for practising. I have no experience with any of the languages you mention, but have heard (from my mother) that Japanese is easier. Chinese might prove more useful. And if she is anything like I was at that age, she might prefer Korean for sheer outlandishness (still have that Greenlandish textbook somewhere).

I see outlandishness appealing strongly to my dd tbh

OK thanks cory, I will have to delve about a bit and see what is available etc. Has to be something she can realistically continue with if we move about and I am not sure how easily I would find Korean teachers/courses if we move

Or Jpanaese for that matter come to think of it.

30 languages your mum learnt (so far). Wow

Jpanaese

should learn to type eh? That indeed is an outlandish language. I meant Japanese of course.

I have studied Chinese and Japanese, and dabbled in a little Korean. I don't think you can really say that any of them are easier or harder than the others, except perhaps that Korean is the simplest to learn to write.

Chinese - easy part is the grammar, very simple, word order is like English, and no complicated declensions. Hard parts: tones - though depending on how good an ear you have, this is not as hard to pick up as everyone thinks; also reading/writing - you have to learn about 4,000 characters to be effectively literate ie read a newspaper. The simplified characters used on the mainland are easier to learn to write, but I actually find them harder to read than the full-form characters used in Hong Kong, Taiwan etc.

Japanese - easy part is pronunciation: there is a very limited range of sounds, none of which are particularly hard for English speakers apart from the one which is kind of a blend of l/r/d. Hard parts are grammar - very complex, very different constructions from English, and you need to learn to speak in different ways depending on your gender, the social context and the person you are talking to - but even so, basic conversational Japanese is not that hard; writing system is very complex - uses three different elements: characters borrowed from Chinese, and two different sets of phonetic symbols. The good thing is that unlike Chinese, if you can't remember how to write the character, you can use one of the phonetic scripts to write the word. The bad thing is that unlike Chinese, each character has multiple possible pronunciations depending on context.

Korean - I'm less of an expert here, but pronunciation is not that hard, and they have just one writing system, which is phonetic and not that hard to learn (though they do still use Chinese characters for names and in older literature). Bad news is that grammatical system is similarly complex to Japanese, and also has the differences depending on social context.

I would say that if your DD is interested in languages, she would have fun with any of those three. Korean is possibly marginally the easiest because of the less complicated writing system, but harder to find teachers and materials, and fewer people to speak it to! Chinese would probably win on the usefulness factor, if you are thinking about how many people speak it. Really I would say the deciding factor should be which country and culture she has more of an interest in.

Hope this helps.

If you think you may be going to Singapore, then definitely learn Mandarin. Singaporean school children have to learn it also, and it's worked into local dialect.

Mandarin really is a language of the future, and is fascinating to learn. If you wanted to learn the rudiments yourself, even though it is more challenging as an adult the philosophy behind the written and spoken words is brilliant.

So, er... that's a vote for mandarin.

I learnt japanese as an adult (though didn't keep it up so am useless in it now).

I would say it's not a massively hard language to get started in (though of course very hard to master). They do use chinese characters but they also have two phonetic alphabets and the children's stuff usually has the pronunciation of the characters written in one of these - it takes a while for children to learn the 200 basic chinese characters and they are not expected to know them until they are reasonably old.

Pronunciation is a doddle -they have considerably less sounds than english does.

The one thing I found so irritating about it that I ended up refusing to use it is the hierarchical side - you are always having to choose whether to talk 'up' or 'down' at people - it was a baggage I could do without!

eek - sorry, that should be fewer sounds

that helps enormously, thank you very much. I didn't know any of the points you mentioned. Well done tackling those 3 languages. I am feeling a bit overawed by them tbh

I should think being more musical than me, dd might have a good enough ear for Chinese since she sings in a choir and she plays the violin. I don't know but I am sure I could not hear the rising and falling tones.

Does sound like quite a challenge mastering any of those languages but perhaps she does not in the end have to truly master the language, just a doorway to accessing a culture in some kind of depth perhaps.

I suppose dd knows most about China/Chinese culture atm. I will run the sound of the 3 languages past her I think.

dd has briefly dabbled in both mandarin and japanese. Exexpat gave a good synopsis of the differences - I would think choice might be dictated by what's available locally, but I think mandarin would be a good choice if she's interested in it & might be going to live in singapore in the future, but it is best taught by a native speaker & maybe that's not possible for you.

I have studied Mandarin, Japanese and dabbled in a little Korean. I agree totally with Exexpat in summarizing those languages.

I started with Mandarin first and found it to be a very good base. Also, it does open up Singapore, and Taiwan as well as PRC. Perhaps you could borrow some language cds from a local library and let dd listen?

Oh, and check out the BBC learning pages. They may well have a beginners course.

Good luck

I am fluent in French, German and Russian and have recently started learning Japanese (am a SAHM and need to fire up the brain a bit). It is so very different to the languages I already know and is providing a real challenge for me. I go to evening classes once a week, but am finding the 'My Japanese Coach' game on the Nintendo DS a really good way of catching up with the rest of my class (they have been studying it longer than I have). Does your DD have a Nintendo DS? The game was only about £10 and might be a good way of seeing if the Japanese is for her. Your DD sounds like a real gem.

I can't speak any of the langauges you mention, but I do edit CJK dictionaries for a living and so have some passive understanding of the languages, if that makes sense!

I'd agree with what the others have said, and would suggest Mandarin would probably be the most useful. With apologies to Japanese and Koreans who might be reading, I'd also imagine that an understanding of Chinese would help if your DD decides in future to learn one of the other langauges, because she'd have a grasp of Chinese characters. Ad if you do go to Singapore, Chinese would definitely be the most useful of the 3.

Thanks for the tip-off about the Nintendo DS game - will try and get hold of a copy for my DS, who is forgetting his Japanese. Unfortunately it seems to be out of stock everywhere at the moment.

I did a little bit of Japanese at school. I found the conversational lessons not too bad, but learning to read and write very difficult. The grammar is nothing like any european language.

Learning a language is more about learnng a culture and I think your daughter will gain whatever language she picks. It broadens the mind.

If I was you I would let her pick.

I'd definitely vote for Mandarin. It's the most widely spoken of the three and is definitely a language to be learning for the future. And if there's a chance you'll be in Singapore, then it's a no-brainer!

I've been learning Mandarin for 3 years now, and it's a fascinating language. Much easier than many others in that the grammar is relatively simple. It's certainly straightforward enough to be able to make yourself understood at a reasonably rudimentary level.

Re the tones, as long as she has a good teacher, who gets her off to the right start, she's unlikely to have any problems - especially if she's musical.

There are four tones, and once you learn these, that's it. It is vital to learn them, but it quickly becomes second nature.

thanks everyone for the great advice. I must say they all sound hard and I feel a bit intimidated reading what is involved. My suspician is that a weekly lesson alone is not going to get you there and more than once a week we couldn't manage atm with everything else we have going on. (over-scheduled idiot mother emoticon)

I had only read cory's posts and then exexpat's very helpful run-down on the 3 languages before I had to go out so I hadn't seen any of the others. Sorry if it looked like I ignored you butterfly, sauce and Ib. I think you posted about the same time so I didn't see those posts till now.

My guess is I would have to get involved in this in some capactiy because if the grammar of Korean and Japanese is so involved, she may need help with it beyond a lesson once a week. In the same way if she needs to learn a great deal of characters off by heart, I may have to in some way monitor this/work with her so she gets there bit by bit. ONce a week here wouldn't suffice either.

I'm wondering about a lesson once a week and possibly an au pair who speaks that language. Not sure how keen they might be to come to the Czech Republic - presumably not much.

Were you in Korea, Butterfly when you learnt Korean?

I'm liking the idea of Japanese pronunciation being a doddle. I think the keyword I am looking for is easy but I see I will not find it!

dd does have a nintendo Jimmy. Will look into that Japanese coach thing, see if I can find it.

Realising how very little I know about these languages actually.

Just re Japanese (think the same applies to Korean?), if you speak Japanese and get the register(?) wrong speaking to a particular person, is that worse than speaking English because it is like you are being deliberately rude? I'm presuming a child has to speak up to everyone except another child so presumably they concentrate on the most polite register (if that's the right term). Would that be right. Sounds a bit of a minefield really.

Fascinating though.

So if the writing is so hard in Japanese and Chinese, I suppose she doesn't really need to be great at that side of things. Perhaps she'd need to concentrate more on the speaking and reading...

crumbs, I am a bit overawed at you posters who have tackled these languages tbh. When I did my masters, I had a prof who I thought was a bit up himself. I remember he announced that anyone in our field worth his/her salt could read specialist literature in at least 6 languages. If you couldn't, you may as well just pack it in there and then. Someone claimed to speak German, French, Dutch, Spanish, Italian etc and he waved those aside : oh, he said, the European dialects. As if any idiot could read those (mind you reading specialist lit in your field =/= reading great works of art it's true). Now I am starting to see what he meant.

Although the characters add more complexity - another layer of learning - it's actually quite fun to learn them. It's also supposed to help with the development of the conceptual/right side of the brain.

If she's keen, no harm in having a go!

(But definitely make it Mandarin)

Is it wrong to say "Chinese" for the language? Could you tell me what the basic difference is between Mandarin and Cantonese BIWI? Is it like the difference between standard Arabic and local dialects (i.e. huge)?

There is definitely the risk of appearing rude if you choose the wrong form in Japanese. The problem I had with it was that even though I knew what the 'right' form was (i.e. talking 'up' to my male colleagues) I just wasn't willing to do it - it's really hard to tell someone they are being lame and they should start pulling their weight in that form!

As a funny anecdote, I had a Japanese friend (expat from a young age) who used to pretend not to speak Japanese on business trips to Japan for exactly that reason....