Headteachers have voted to boycott SATS....

[deaddei]

but in RL what will that mean?
Will some schools not do them?

The truth is SATs are not fit for purpose they are a political tool not a measure of academic ability. The marking system has become a farce put out to tender not really the way to get quality assessment.

Beenbeta yes I am proud of her but I was a little concerned to see her wanting to spend time in her holiday sitting exam papers as she was worried about losing her place in the higher classes. She is eight but taught in year 6 for the core subjects.

I recognise that as a parent of a very clever child ( not gifted but clever and very motivated) I have a responsibility to do a lot at home with her rather than leave it all to the school. Sometimes we follow the school curriculum, perhaps looking at the areas in which she is not as strong and practising at home. Sometimes we follow her natural interests, for example she loves fossils and dinosaurs. We went last week to the NHM, we have bought books watched documentaries, she has spent her pocket money on a fossil and we have booked a fossil walk in Lyme Regis. She is putting togther a little project that she will present to her class in show and tell.

But seeing her cram or put herself under pressure for a test that is some way away worries me. But maybe I am projecting my own anxieties on her. For years she has loved to sit and do those little books with Key stage activities in.

My worry is that in particular a school like dds which is under a lot of pressure due to a poor OFSTED too much time is going to be spent in school preparing for SATS, going over the same thing again and again. My dd at present loves school but like a lot of clever children she will get bored, a clever bored child becomes a disruptive one very quickly. Of course you could argue that the problem is not the SATS but the way they are implemented in schools, I have some sympathy with that view. But I stress I am not a primary teacher and I teach a subject that is not assessed by SATS. I like the idea of a public shared assessment to ensure standards are being met.

Onebadbaby it does depend on the child, my dd is in heaven doing sums or any activity she perceives as helping her to learn.

tethersend - I am not ignoring you. I THNK I have answered all your questions but I am not a teacher so of course you know lots of acronyms and details I dont. I trade shares and bonds. I would not expect you to know the intimate detals of that profeison but I would be interetsed in hearing what you think about pensions and investments as a consumer.

wastwinset - your DD is clearly a very motivated child and most imortantly she is happy. I can understand why you feel a bit worried. Indeed, I dont think she should be being taught with Yr 6. If there was streaming within her year group that would surely be a better way to cope with her level of ability.

I could have written your post about DS1. His Prep school follows the National Curriculum, does SATs and is not selective. We feel he is bored and that is why I suppose I come across as anxious. I agree SATs are not the problem - the way they are implemented is. I do not thnk they shoudl be scrapped and nothng put in its place. I favour public assessment too.

onebadbaby - DS1 is not struggling. He is doing very well but the school only teaches up to SATs standard and he is capable of more. However, there are still some areas he needs to work on. I would like to see a pubic exam assessment at the end of each year at Primary level.

scaryteacher - as I said. I want public assessment every year so that I as a parent have an independent oversight. I found doing 11+ papers with DS1 was a real eye opener as to what he didnt know. He is in Yr 5.

That is never going to happen. As you rightly pointed out, the KS3 SATs were scrapped owing to the administrative nightmare. I marked them (not in the final year, but with EdExcel in previous years) and there simply weren't enough markers then. You would never get enough markers for a public exam for every child in the country, every year. And it would cost the earth.

They do stream in different ways already Beenbeta. Within her class there are ability tables. I think the whole school must to the core subjects together. So most children are sat on different ability tables others are actually moved into different classrooms so they can work with children of their own ability. Dd is one of them. Some children from year 6 are put in other classes as well. So I suppose she is not really going into year 6 but going into the top set for certain subjects, but most of the kids in that group are in year 6 and they have a year 6 teacher.

It works for her, she is an only child and perhaps as a result she likes to be with older children.

I haven't read all this thread, but boycotting the SATs does not mean that there will be a strike, it just means that the children would be taught rather than tested during SAT's week.

The problem with public assessments at the end of each year is that some / many schools either teach to the test or cheat to get their results up. And some parents pay for tutors, which means that the results are not just down to the school. Hence the results and league tables are just not reliable.

Secondary schools don't use the information - they test children on arrival using verbal / non-verbal reasoning type tests which measure ability, not "previous teaching" as the SAT's are meant to.

My dd is not bored at school though because we do much at home with her and we are in constant contact with the school. I don't think a child's education is just the responsibility of the school.

Despite what I said on this thread, I really do not want to be in the teachers face.

Teachers teach, not parents. I really dont want to be in constant contact with the school but yes still doing my part at home. I am not a teacher - which is why I want to be informed with a reliable public test fairly regularly.

The chaos of marking could surely be avoided with multichoice type questions automatically graded which is what 11+ is in some cases?

Do you really think that multi choice questions are the best way of assessing learning in every subject? Or ability? And if not, why do it?

Forgive me if I am being a bit dim, but I don't really understand the argument in favour of testing that you are putting forward, BeenBeta.

Summative assessment (which is what you are talking about when you want a public examination at the end of KS2) is only good for showing where a child is in a snapshot of time. When you talk about using that assessment to inform setting you are talking more about formative assessment, which teachers do constantly.

It sounds as though what you are wanting is a national standard so that you can say that, at the end of KS2, your child is at x level. That is fine and to be expected. Your child's teacher will be able to give you an accurate, current level from their ongoing assessment at any time of the year - and back it up with evidence. That is what APP (Assessing Pupils Progress) is all about and, although labour intensive, is far more accurate than a summative 'test' can ever be. I would argue that teacher assessment based on on going questioning, marking and judgement is a more accurate indicator of a child's progress than any kind of written testing can ever be.

Can you explain to me exactly how summative testing improves standards, because that is lost on me.

SATS at Year 6 have become such a disproportionately important indicator of a school's worth that it is inevitable that schools will feel under pressure to cram the children for their tests. Among the teachers I know, year 6, which used to be a very popular year to teach, has become the year every teacher dreads being given. The pressure is enormous and the teaching can become very dull for at least a term a year when the children are being prepared for the exams.

SATS are bad tests and give such a narrow indication of ability. You seem to have conceded that point by saying you want a test you deem to be more rigorous. Why, then, are you suggesting that teaching unions are wrong to want to protest about SATS? The reason Head Teachers want to boycott the SATS is because they do not benefit the children. Full stop. This is not a case of unreasonable unions trying to make life difficult, it is simply that those who know best (teachers and Head teachers) recognise that SATS are bad for children and their opinions have been ignored for far too long.

"tethersend - I am not ignoring you. I THNK I have answered all your questions but I am not a teacher so of course you know lots of acronyms and details I dont. I trade shares and bonds. I would not expect you to know the intimate detals of that profeison but I would be interetsed in hearing what you think about pensions and investments as a consumer."

You have not answered a single one, BeenBeta, despite repeated requests. Why not just answer the question about the number of children leaving primary school unable to read? No acronyms involved in that one, and it was you who said that the number is too small- just say what that number is!!!

You are right about one thing- I haven't got a clue when it comes to the trading of shares and bonds.

Which is precisely why I wouldn't post on a thread about it.

Well I guess I ought to kill the thread.

After seeing the polls today, it looks like it is going to be a hung Parliament. I am sure that the teaching unions will now press their advantage with a weak coalition Lib-Lab Govt in charge and SATs will be cancelled without the need for a strike. Nothing will be put in place to replace them. Teaching unions will then run riot with demands for wage rises, reductions in teacher assessments, changes to pension rights and so on. It will be never ending and if the Govt tries to resist they will dangle the threat of disrupting A levels. There will not have to strike - Govt will cave in immediately.

Will the last person to leave the country switch out the lights.

Yes, that's precisely what's going to happen.

After that, the NUT is going to form a coalition with the NASUWT and they are going to storm parliament and smash the instruments of our oppression and then they will charge out (on horses) and ride down Whitehall waving red flags (made at school by children who should have been in exams) and beheading anyone who looks like they may in some way be involved with private industry before merging ALL schools into one huge commune where the children teach the teachers and the teachers sit around stealing peoples' dinner money and getting paid millions of YOUR tax money because you will be forced to work down the mines and all your wages will go to teachers who won't even bother to turn up to school. And then we will have what we want.

BTW, any answer on the number of children who leave primary school unable to read....? No?

Quelle surprise.

SATs start on Monday May 10th and the election result won't be known until the Friday before, so I hardly think there will have been time to cancel them....

One of the major reasons why it is likely that all SATS will be scrapped is because the Govt have shown over the last 5 years that they are unable to get enough qualified people to mark them accurately, the cost is too high and most schools question the results.

Getting rid of the SATS will probably create more work for teachers as there will still have to be assessment of students acheivement and this will have to be monitored closely - through OFSTED and probably some type of external moderation of marking.

I have absolutely no idea where Beenbeta is getting their information from - surely you are joking and are just trying to get a reaction from people!

Can I just give you one idea to ponder, BeenBeta?

SATs are easy street for teachers. You teach 'em the tricks, they jump through the hoops.

All is then lovely until you get the same student for GCSE, & it becomes embarrassingly apparent to all concerned that your heavily coached 'level 6' student is never, ever going to get a grade B.

Meanwhile, his brighter best mate is kicking back, with a target of C - which will get her onto the college course she likes the look of - she only got a level 5.

OK, she got all of 2 marks less than her friend (& she had flu that day, as it happens) - still, it says '6' on his result & '5' on hers - her GCSE expectations are now one full grade lower.

Which means her teacher doesn't have to hassle her - she's 'on target' with her C, even though the teacher knows full well she could get a B. So she's left to coast - unless the teacher's actually teaching to the best of his ability to enable his students to strive for the highest grades they can attain. Most of us do our damnedest: tbh, I can't think why you'd do the job at all, otherwise.

With the target setting by SATs model, what incentive does he have to encourage a bright but not greatly motivated student to get out & push?

We've all taught the kid who couldn't be arsed until he hit year 11 & realised that his mates were off to college without him unless he got his finger out, & we've all taught the kid who was coached within an inch of his life for KS2 & KS3 SATs, & just couldn't quite hit an unrealistic GCSE target...

SATs, in & of themselves, do not make life difficult for teachers. It's a bloody sight easier to get cracking SATs results than it is to actually teach.

If I wanted to reduce my workload & make myself look good, I'd have SATs back tomorrow - to the detriment of my students' education.

I'd like to suggest that you try asking your dc's teachers how they assess progress, & what moderation procedures & safeguards they have in place.

Then do some research into SATs marking & moderation.

Then re-examine your faith in external assessment.

ds's head warned us about this months ago. She's in favour of the boycott and I agree with her. Especially since becoming a governor and finding out a lot more about how the DCSF works.

SATS marking is a joke, btw - ds's school got bizarre results in maths, didn't make sense at all based on previous results and results in English. When they sent them back to be checked it turned out the first set of marks were way out. Can't remember the details but it was a huge balls-up that should have been obvious to whichever body is responsible - QCA?

Minthumbug just suppose a fairly large group of doctors said that a particular treatment was unsafe and they didn't feel happy doing it. Would you still want the treatment? If the government said that it was fine and it's want patients want because it's a quicker treatment, would you still want it? I would assume that you would at least have deep reservations about it. Why should it be any different for education?

Thousands upon thousands of teachers are telling this country that SATs do not work but nobody is listening. The government shouts the subject down saying that it's what parents want. I believe that parents want to know how their children are doing in school. Are they on target or not? Do they need extra help? SATs do not achieve this. In any way shape or form. I taught a boy who managed to reach a level 4 most unexpectedly since he could only just about put a sentence together. Turned out he had committed a few sentences from a wall display to memory and had copied them onto his SAT paper. They had nothing to do with the topic under examination but since they were quite good individual sentences the marker had managed to make it into a level 4. Cue Senco having a long chat with the high school to make sure they understood the situation and he wasn't going to lose his much fought over SEN place.

Teacher assessments are far more accurate and take much more time to prepare. How many industries say 'Hey, I want more work for no extra pay for the benefit of other people's children and I'm prepared to take industrial action to do it?' Levels can be moderated between schools much as year 2 SATs are. Therefore there should be less presure for teachers to up their marks since others schools will pick up on it and call it into question. I appreciate that many want schools to be externally assessed and they already are by OFSTED. I personally have no problem with external assessment at all it's just that SATs are not fit for purpose.

'I want my children to take externally marked SATS.'

Mint Humbug - who do you think's going to mark them?

I don't do SATs marking because I'm an experienced teacher, & not desperately in need of minimum wage overtime; the money's dreadful & it's soul-destroying work. Thanks, but no thanks.

The only English teacher I've ever met who regrets the demise of the year 9 SATs was a young colleague who marked them to pay for her summer rampage of clubbing & beach-hopping.

Actually, I'm not sure which were scarier - her accounts of QCA marking procedures, or her accounts of the holiday they funded...

'Externally marked' seems to lead to the not unreasonable assumption that the papers are being closely scrutinised by someone who actually knows what they're looking at - not necessarily the case.

Absolutely no disrespect intended to my colleague btw - she's great. But examination marking is tedious & badly paid work; mistakes are very readily made & not so readily noticed.

I'd have to be really unhappy with any teacher of my dc before I put more credence in an external result than in their assessment.

Have any of you teachers ever encountered a parent refusing to allow their children to take SATS? If I was in England would I be allowed to do that?