What hope has this boy got?

[OrmRenewed]

Dh teaches yr 11 in a school for children with behavioural and developmental problems of varying degrees. Most of them get no GCSEs at all but the school does it's best to prepare them for adult life. One of the boys stormed off today - threw his chair on the floor, said 'fuck this I'm off!' and left via the fire exit. DH hasn't been teaching long so feels really bad of course. When the school asked the parents in to talk about it - they refused for the reason that they didn't bother with education so they didn't really care about their sons'.

Now whilst it's obvious that he isn't going to get any sort of academic acheivement, the school was a place of order and calm. The pupils achieved something simply by attending and learning to do things as a group.

And some of the home lives of these children would break your heart.

It would and it does.

I get angry when I hear of social workers effectively being blamed for the horrific child neglect/cruelty child deaths that hit the headlines. I'm not an SS though I work in front line health and I think it'd make some people's hair curl to see the squalor and hopelessness in which so many kids live their early lives.

As one SS said, if you saw as many poo smeared, stinking, disgusting houses as I do, you'd realise that what we're trying to decide is degree of unacceptableness. At what point DOES 'the State' intervene?

Sadly- and here I will be flamed I'm sure: If we really as a society want to sort out our allegedly 'broken society' it has to start with the discouraging of the casual conception of unwanted, unloved kids, born to uncaring and useless 'parents'.

Your DH has to console himself that the majority of DCs are brought up in loving, caring environments: it's just a pity the massive impact those who don't have on the rest of society, and the misery of their own lives.

Very, very sad. Even more sad that I wasn't the slightest bit shocked by what the child or the parent did.

I too, see it at school on a regular basis. Your DH is doing a wonderful job, I'm sure. He must remember for every one he thinks he's failed, he has made a success and impact on lots and lots of others.

Thankyou.

I think it has been a bit of a shock to DH to realise just how bad things are for some of the children. But whilst he's witnessed worse behaviour, most of the parents care in their way - it was the fact these really couldn't give a shit that shocked him.

One went off yesterday - hit DH and tried to have a go at another boy. It no longer surprises him

I've seen a few documentaries about pupils/schools like that. It can be really sad, but uplifting seeing how some of them can turn out ok.

Your DH is doing a really important and under-appreciated job, I hope he can keep remembering that when it gets tough.

wait I didn't mean he should remember he's under-appreciated

I mean he should remind himself what a great job he's doing!

'Sadly- and here I will be flamed I'm sure: If we really as a society want to sort out our allegedly 'broken society' it has to start with the discouraging of the casual conception of unwanted, unloved kids, born to uncaring and useless 'parents'.'

I quite agree. We also need to look at the financial support given to these 'parents'. That is not an attack on single mums, who are widowed, divorced or whose relationship didn't work out, and who try their utmost for their kids, but at some of the girls I used to teach who saw a baby as an easy ride to a flat and benefits.

What I cannot work out is, if I managed in 1983 at 17 to walk into a family planning clinic and come out with the pill; why they can't do so now, especially with all the confidentiality now about for the girls and the fact that a Dr can prescribe the pill when they are under the age of consent without their parent's permission. Condoms were also on sale in Boots then, just as they are now, and in the supermarkets. Sex Ed is better than it ever was, so what is the excuse?

Orm - it is tough when you realise that however hard you try, there isn't anything you can actually do for a student apart from be there. I used to come home and hug ds, and just be grateful that I and he haven't had the kind of upbringing that some of my students had.

It is sad and your dh is doing a great job. He has to remember that If he can turn around the life of just such child it is a major achievement.

After teaching I went into prison Ed and some of the backgrounds, ignoring the crimes for now, are heart breaking and it is no wonder some of them ended up where they were.

In many cases teenage girls and young women don't go to get the pill because having a baby represents the best option open to them of having an independent, fulfilling life.

I think kids like that can be turned round. If that kid was lucky enough to have 1-to-1 tuition, then he wouldn't behave like that. A lot of these behavioural problems are due to the group dynamic, where the child is either trying to exert control or avoid looking stupid. Part of the behaviour is a demonstration to others within the group. Once he is removed from that group environment and the environment becomes more personal, his behaviour will change. More resources and teachers need to be provided to help these kids solve their behavioural problems.

The parents refusing to come in can also be explained. It is a stressful situation for the parents to be called in and wait in the waiting room to see the headmaster in such a formal way. To them it feels as if they are being blamed and being ticked off. The spotlight is on them and what they are going to do about it. Some parents would rather avoid this stressful situation and their way of avoiding the situation is to say "fuck this I'm off" in a similar way to how their son avoided the stressful situation within the class.

An alternative way of handling it, if possible, would be for someone from the school to go to the parents' house. This is less stressful for the parents.

If a child is having problems with a particular teacher, such as personality clash etc., then if the teacher taught a 1-to-1 lesson in the child's home, with the parents present, and shared a cup of tea and biscuit with everybody, then I think the confrontation between the teacher and the student would vanish. The child could no longer act out a role in opposition to the teacher.

Mm- I'm not sure.

This goes back to nature v. nurture, doesn't it?

IMO, the -ahem- damage is done very early on- even at conception if the mother is a) very young, b) drinks, c) smokes and/or d) comes from the sort of deprived, neglected background that engenders early promiscuity.

These DCs are born 'behind the 8 ball' iyswim. Whatever hand wringing, social equality pushing 'liberals' may think, this DC is likely to have a significantly reduced chance of what we measure as success in life. They are far more likely to end up 'known to the authorities', they are far more likely to lead chaotic lives, and are at great risk of repeating the cycle.

I feel what we as a society needs is stick and carrot.

Abortion and adoption at birth should be presented as a better option than it is for both the mother and the often, the DC's chances; the father should be chased via DNA and made to pay ( I imagine there'd be far more young men pulling on condoms if they knew their Social Security was going to halved in order to support their casually conceived offspring!); there should be more or less compulsory 'mother and baby' homes, not council flats for those whose own parents cannot or will not support and guide them.

As for removing a DC from the group, really they have to be removed from the entire environment that engenders such behaviours in the first place. You can throw all the 'resources' and teachers you like at the issue, but, as the Jesuits used to say, 'Give me the boy at 7 and I will show you the man'....

I recall 7 being about the age where certain (not all!) DCs at my DSs school from 'sub optimal' backgrounds stopped being 'You poor little thing' and became 'You little shit!' as their behaviour became more dangerous and threatening. Yes, again, I know I will be flamed for 'writing off' that DC at that age- but really, it's not that I am writing them off as much as the fact I have no powers to do the things that might possibly have prevented that potential human car crash of a life heading that way!

The people who perhaps could are far too ham strung by being PC and touchy-feely to tackle the problem at root cause.

claig- I see entirety where you're coming from and you're obviously a nicer person than me the thing is, if as grown adults those parents can't engage with an 'authority figure' in a mature and adult way without needing to be infantalised themselves, what hope the child?

Applauds ampere and scaryteacher.

I think the authorities and schools need to have a greater understanding of people and their different natures. They shouldn't write people off because they don't fit the norm. Very few people are so bad that they cannot be turned round.

I was a very disruptive kid from a good background. I think most disruption is to do with personality, not the environment. There are many kids from bad backgrounds who are well behaved. Just because parents are alcoholics etc. doesn't mean that they don't love their children. People should be careful of making judgements involving removing children from their parents.

In my experience the stick method doesn't work for very disruptive kids, they love it. That is the challenge and battle that they find fun. There are triggers which set different people off, and understanding people better can prevent these triggers being set off.

Many people have been disruptive in their youth and ended up great members of society when they grew up. We shouldn't judge the worth of any human being, or make judgements about their right to life. We don't know what good they may have done or will do in the future, we can't predict their life path.

claig - this is a school where the class sizes are about 11. They do have one-to-one sessions - with DH and other teachers. The parents were asked if they would prefer to have someone come to see them as they didn't want to come in - they refused that too. This particular child gets on fine with.It isn't the kind of place were 'confrontation' between pupils and staff is the norm.

DH - in fact he thinks the problems (for both boys) were triggered because DH was ill on Mon and Tues and not in school. WHich adds to his feelings of guilt.

it sounds like a good school. It sounds like they will be able to get on top of it. If the parents don't want to participate, it's not the end of the world. If the problems were because DH was ill for a few days, it sounds like it can be solved.

What does your DH think caused the boy to storm out?

He thinks the whole class was disrupted because of his absence (not that he has a God complex or anything ) and that the lad knows he's reaching the end of his time at the school and is going to have to move on soon.

Claig - you won't get many teachers willing to go a child's home and teach one to one because it may not be safe to do so, and the possibility of false allegations being levelled at you are quite high - you get suspended and perhaps it's the end of your teaching career, false accusations or not.

I am teaching a child one to one in his home from next term, but he is mine and it's my home too. That is the only circumstance under which I would do this!

Skidoodly - so this proves that the current situation isn't working, and it needs to be demonstrated that 'having a baby' DOES NOT 'represent the best option open to them of having an independent, fulfilling life.'.

How can living on benefits perpetuating this cycle be independent or fulfilling? Having my ds knocked me for six, and I was 29, 9 years married, with house and two secure jobs (mine and dh's) and had a fair idea of what I was letting myself in for.

scaryteacher, I thought that there might be problems with it, that's why I qualified it with "if possible". Is there a way around that by having more than one person involved? I expect it all starts to become too expensive that way. It is a very difficult situation, probably impossible.

The lad sounds as if he may be uncertain of his future and is slightly fearful and this behaviour re-establishes control for him. It sounds like it can be turned around, provided his treatment is not too heavy-handed. If his punishment is too heavy-handed it will only force him to kick back and worsen the situation.

scaryteacher, I am interested in what you think about this, with your experience of teaching. Would you ever consider doing private 1-to-1 tuition through advertising in a newspaper etc., or is that also too risky?

Claig - do you understand what it feels like for a child to know it's parents do not want to participate. It destroys you as a child, causes terrible difficulties in your ability to have any belief in yourself or any self worth, it undermines everything you do. When you acheive something and they don't acknowledge it you think why the feck should I bother, you lack empathy and ability to integrate into society because it is probable that it is not just not being interested in your education your parents fall down on but most other things they need to be teqaching you to be a decent member of society.

I would say in 9 out of 10 cases of disruptive or maladjusted children (not including those that are disruptive because of SN) it is the fault of the parent and their ability to parent which again is a product of their parents failing.

And being removed from a group most times will not change the way they behave - most kids in group therapy find it easier than in individual or family therapy - their behaviour has been taught by their parents and one to one teaching very often will just magnify their needs as their differences will be more apparent - these need to be addressed with therapy and often medical help in a safe environemt because often these kids exhibit risky behaviour because it is the only way to illicit a response from their parents.

Really one to one teaching will not touch the main problems in these kids lives.

MadameCastafiore, I must have been one of the 1 in 10 cases of disruptive children then. It had nothing to do with my parents inability to parent. It had everything to do with my personality and whether I liked a teacher and whether I thought they were trying to control me and were disrespecting me. I didn't act up with every teacher, only those who pushed my buttons.

In this particular case, I don't think the lad will give two hoots that his parents didn't get involved. There are many parents on MN who have disruptive children, but I don't think in most cases it is the parents' fault. I admire the brave parents on here who mention their children's problems because they know that their parenting will be suspected. I'm sure there are many MN members who are too scared to mention it on threads in case other MN members think it is all their fault.

I personally don't agree with touchy-feely group therapy sessions because I know that they would not have worked for me. I think they can be patronising and disrespectful to the individual and I think that the first thing that the lad in this case would do in such a situation is to say "fuck this I'm off", which is exactly what I would have done.

I think this lad could very well be charming in a 1-to-1 situation, but if you put him in a group his behaviour is likely to change. In a group he will want to display dominance, he will want to avoid disrespect and humiliation through getting things wrong etc. in front of his peers. These pressures will cause him to act up. One-to-one teaching builds up a closeness between the teacher and pupil and allows the child's confidence to develop. After this re-introducing the child to the group becomes a lot easier.

Well we will have to agree to disagree then.

I am basing my opinion on the work the teachers do in the school on the unit I work in.

And I would say that the kid is probably mortified that his parents are not involved - but it is something he has grown up with and his anger is probably a manifestation of this - he feels rejected and so rejects others when they try and help - one to one won't do much for him because he will probably throw the help he is trying to be given in that person's face - his other problems need to be addressed too which he probably has due to having attachment problems.

As for touchy touchy groups - you get a few social workers who are a bit sappy and run some groups like that but most professionals are understanding but very blunt and direct - groups are, even for the very damaged, often not at all touchy feely as it is proven that children like that find it easier to deal with direct honesty.