The disadvantages of an elite education

[camaleon]

A bit old but still interesting (my view).
here

Yes, very interesting, thanks.

Great read. Thanks.

It is very good. And, I fear, ever more credible in these days of frantic testing and competitiveness.

Makes me even gladder not to be an American. What an utterly ridiculous idea that someone would not know how to talk to a plumber just because you had an elite education. People I know who have that kind of eduication (not Americans - mercifully) can talk to and respect anyone - why would you in any case need to speak any differently to a plumber than one of your colleagues @ work?

Totally wrong...and very long winded into the bargain. He's not as elite a brain as he thinks he is. If he'd said the same thing in fewer words I'd have more respect (but still disagreed).

I think the US Ivy League must be very different from our good universities. Russell group and even oxbridge have loads of normal people. They are academically not socially elitist. I may be wrong but don't you have to pay a hell of a lot for Harvard etc?

Interesting, and a grain of truth re:lack of diversity etc. But IME of Oxford there are a fair number down to earth people, people from working class backgrounds, and more ahem thick people than you might imagine. If you get to late teens/early twenties unable to talk to a plumber, then possibly upbringing/social skills are to blame. I did find there were shockingly few people at Oxford from a British ethnic minority background though.

you do Grimma, but they have a lot of scholarships.
I had an American boyfriend (from the mid-west) who I met studying at Cambridge - he then went to Yale for his PhD and was very unhappy there as he found it very snobby in comparison. Which surprised me but it makes more sense in the light of that article.

"Totally wrong...and very long winded into the bargain. He's not as elite a brain as he thinks he is."

But this reflexion probably confirms his own thoughts... The shocking point is that he comes to understand after so long that he may not be such a brain. still think it raises important points about where you are meant to be in life according to acadmic results, how you measure yourself -and how others see you.
And of course, how much help you expect from the outside world when you come from a background or another.

Honestly , what a load of whinging.

They taught us this. They taught us that.
Dude, you were in your twenties, you could and should have questioned everything.

If you find yourself now unable to converse with your plumber, then frankly, you've been a bit of a twat.

"At the same time, because these schools tend to cultivate liberal attitudes, they leave their students in the paradoxical position of wanting to advocate on behalf of the working class while being unable to hold a simple conversation with anyone in it".

I suspect we have a few members of the UK political class in this position.

I don't think that failings like this can be blamed on the school you go to. Yes schools can and do serve other purposes, but their primary function is to educate their pupils.

I don't dispute that in some schools you are exposed to a very narrow sector of the population. But I think that if someone comes through life with such a lack of social skills they have to blame their parents for that one. There are plenty of opportunities to interact outside of school as well as in it.

(by schools I mean schools and universities)

I don't dispute that in some schools you are exposed to a very narrow sector of the population. But I think that if someone comes through life with such a lack of social skills they have to blame their parents for that one. There are plenty of opportunities to interact outside of school as well as in it.

I think you make a good point. Those I know that have had an 'elite education' seem to have parents who have had very little to do with them. I do know some who have an seemingly astonishing lack of understanding and empathy about how most normal, ordinary people live.

There are many disadvantages of having had a very narrow educational experience, but I don't think that's a very good example of one.

'I did find there were shockingly few people at Oxford from a British ethnic minority background though'

I think that's changed/changing. I was at Oxford in the mid eighties and it was admittedly true then. I go into Oxford quite often now and have noticed that the ethnic mix is much changed. I notice a lot of Muslim girls heading towards the science labs, in particular.

I think it's a big long winded, but basically what it says is absolutely true ime among the British. I would say that Americans are much more mixed socially than the British.

So way back I'm hanging with a bunch of postgrads at the Uni where I just started work (I am American born and raised), and one of them starts talking about the tradesmen he had in his house that day. He said something like "It's not very often one has to deal with people like that." By which he definitely meant class -- although I didn't even understand then.

I only knew that it was a very weird elitist thing to say and I immediately took the mick out of his tone (as was my new learned habit among my new friends) -- but nobody responded. Years later I clocked the accents... actually, almost everybody working or postgrad in my department was privately educated.

This was NOT a Russell Brand Uni I worked at, either.

Lljk - assuming you meant Russell Group uni. But Russell Brand uni would be a laugh - not too elite me thinks .

I think the article was very good as a depiction of a certain sort of American, and a certain sort of French person (the product of prépa and a grande école) would also fit the description very well indeed.

I think it is not really a description of the Enlish, however.

I visit the US to see relatives or for work purposes, but the class divide always makes me feel vaguely sick. There simply isn't the same degree of integration we have in the UK. People inhabit more geographically segregated areas, have completely different experiences of nutrition, education and healthcare, and comparatively ordinary people I know on the East Coast still seem to have black maids pratting about in little uniforms keeping house for them. I find it all really difficult to stomach.

That having been said, I fear Cambridge is going that way. Homerton has got rid of its nursing course, and now the Faculty of Education is currently thinking of getting rid of its BA degree in Education and giving the student place allocations to other, sexier, subject areas. Student volunteering has decreased and there is limited political engagement by undergraduates there. Does that mean that public sector and social engagement will be less prized by UK elite graduates? Is this a sign that we are heading the same way as snotty old Harvard?

The domestic servant culture in the US (and in France) is particularly difficult for the English to stomach, I think. We have a long-standing tradition of upper/middle-class men and women pursuing creative pastimes in the domestic sphere (gardening, cooking, decorating...) and, in England, this is entirely compatible with a rich intellectual and inner life.

Abride : agree re Oxford. There were plenty of ethnic minority students there in mid-late 90s.

Boffinmum - you are probably right re Cambridge although there are proportionately more ethnic minority students there than Exeter, for example. It always seemed to offer less 'develpoment of the whole person' than the other place.

Makes sense why there are so many Americans living in the Gulf - I wonder whether they transported their values from back home or if it was just a happy coincidence!

It's not the servant thing, it's the having black servants pratting about in prissy little uniforms with frilly aprons that I find odd. Especially when you look around and the only black people you see for miles are in these roles, and there are none who work in managerial or professional jobs. It's just wrong.

Though IME the servants themselves want to wear those awful uniforms - they are not imposed upon them by employers but requested by the servants themselves. Again, deeply cultural.

Here in Paris domestic servants are also mainly black or Filipino or Sri Lankan.

A generation ago they were Portuguese or Spanish. These days the descendants of those Portuguese or Spanish domestic servants have benefited from growing up in the quartiers chics and have risen above the servant class.