The disadvantages of an elite education

[camaleon]

A bit old but still interesting (my view).
here

'Jump on the education bandwagon' - well that's probably because educational provision can be changed and shaped through investment and legislation.

Legislating against inadequate parenting takes a government into completely different ethical territory.

at being concerned about the education system being "jumping on the educational band wagon"!

It does show muddled thinking, if you admit that parenting issues are the reason for inequality, but choose to campaign on something entirely different, because it is too difficult to campaign on the real issue.
Education is provided free of charge to all children in this country. So no-one is deprived of education. Some people prefer to pay for a different type, or better quality of education. This does not take anything away from those who take the free provision. If that free provision is deficient - then look at ways to improve it. But one way guaranteed not to improve it is to take away alternatives.

TheLateMrsLizCromwell It does show muddled thinking, if you admit that parenting issues are the reason for inequality I must have missed a post as I don't recall anyone saying that parenting issues are the reason for inequality. I think you will find it is one of many reasons inequality exists.

The parents have a bigger impact than the school and genes play a part too. If some parents think private schools are better they could seek work which enables them to pay fees. Most of us who pay fees aren't able to do that because we sat around waiting for money to flow like manna from heaven. Instead we planned the ability to pay school fees for years, just as plenty marry someone rich who will pay or move to near a posh state school or to an area with grammar schools.

Greengrow ... Most of us who pay fees aren't able to do that because we sat around waiting for money to flow like manna from heaven. I see, so those who are unable to afford private school for their DCs are sitting there waiting for money "to flow from manna from heaven". Remind me again what the average national wage is again. As for those who have health problems, preventing them from working, how dare they wish they could send their DCs to private school and reap the rewards it brings. They should stop sitting there and get a highly paid job. Right?

MumTryingHerBest - maybe Greengrow is feeling bitter, because she spends a large part of her life pursuing a career she hates and only chose for the money. After all, her words don't sound like the words of someone who enjoys what they do or feels it has value beyond personal and family gain.

(Any response should help decide whether greengrow has 6 children and formerly owned an island).

I think Sutton Trust quoted or funded research showing that the "educational divide" started at 22 months. This clearly has nothing to do with schooling and supports the notion that it is much more to do with:

• parenting; and
• genetics.

There are some things you can't "equalise" and there are not enough professional/white collar jobs for everyone either.

That's not to say society shouldn't look at outcomes and help provide support by redistributing wealth, but you can't have true "equality of opportunity" as their isn't enough opportunity to go round.

PS I never claimed individual liberty and private property where compatible nor did I seek to defend them. I merely stated that we accept both as fundamental and this creates a highly defensible case for private education. We don't ban private healthcare for the same reason.

By "we" you don't actually mean everyone, then, MarriedDad. If you accept both are actually frequently in conflict, then you accept that different people have different views on where one takes precedence over the other, or where other conflicting values are also considered fundamental and occasionally take precedence over the concepts of private property and individual liberty. It is perfectly reasonable to argue against private education whilst still accepting limited notions of private property and individual liberty. Not everyone agrees with private healthcare, either, so I always wonder why people introduce it into arguments about private education as though it is universally acceptable.

Basically, as soon as you accept the notion that "fundamental concepts" can actually conflict, then you are accepting that it is ludicrous to argue that if you accept you can own the clothes on your back or the skin in which you live, you have to accept private ownership of anything in existence, even the air that you breathe.

ps who says everyone wants white collar work, or that an education only prepares you for this?????

So, in conclusion, I still don't see how private education is the "same thing" as owning a house. They are two different things. You don't have to accept both or accept neither.

I take your point. All that said, I still believe that the real task at hand is not to dismantle private education or unfairly selective schools (faith, grammar) but to improve the state schooling system such that it provides the same quality and opportunity for "education".

Even if this is achieved it will still get us no further to decrease inequality as it is not the principle driver. Wealth, parenting and genetics play a much greater part and will continue to perpetuate inter generational success. For this reason, I believe the private school debate is a red herring, distracting us from a) improving the state system and b) true redistribution of wealth.

I largely agree with you. Unfortunately, rather than genuinely improve the state system, we appear to be going down the line of just increasing the number of hours in the day, days in the year and years in general that our children spend in it, without actually spending any more on it, just stretching it out like an over-taut elastic band.

I want the next Government to stop ring fencing education, the NHS and OAPs. They have not cut spending there and we have massive debts we have not even started to pay back which will mean the next 2 generations suffer. We certainly don't want more money spent on education.We need less.

We'll, Greengrow, you could easily get the ball rolling by spending less on education yourself.

Greengrow I want the next Government to stop ring fencing education, the NHS and OAPs. God forbid that OAPs should get anything back after the years they spent paying taxes. After all by the time people retire they should be sitting on nice little nest eggs to support themselves with, right? Sod the sick, let they get off their lazy backsides and work to pay for private healthcare, right?. As for improving education, run it into the ground. It'll give everyone the incentive they need to get well paid jobs and go private like you, Right?

I disagree with green grow a lot.

Health, the UK spend about average amongst OECD nations as a % of GDP and get a better universal service than most. My family work in the NHS and describe how budgets are cut every year by 10% to the point where it's only possible to save money by not treating people.

Education is a national investment that has huge positive economic benefits for future generations. To call it a burden is wrong.

Pensioners - I suppose you're a breath away from compulsory euthanasia then ...

"And what have the Romans ever done for us"
Just popped into my head

Of course, with a rapidly growing population, not cutting the budget is still spending less per person year on year... Just ask all the schools that are getting less money per child year on year, all at a time when electricity bills, gas bills, water bills, etc, which schools have to pay out of that money have also been going up, not down or staying the same... Still, I guess Greengrow wants to ensure that it isn't just the next 2 generations that suffer, but countless generations of uneducated people with untreated ailments.

And if that isn't what's happening, then the government is lying when it says it's ringfencing school budgets, because I don't know any schools around here which haven't received a bit less each year in the last few years than in previous years, with even bigger drops to come. Or maybe that's just because Gove wasted the money on free schools and converting already outstanding schools into academies unnecessarily, thus not spending the money where it was needed...

Married Dad good point about the red herring. A basic starting point would be if everyone could expect an equivalent service from state-funded services - eg state provided education. The biggest inequality in education is those who receive a good state education and those who receive a poor state education. Far bigger gap between best and worst state schools , than between the best state school and indies. Who can really claim that all state education equal? Removing selection by religion would be a good start. There are far more smug catholics in this area than smug fee-payers.

TheLateMrsLizCromwell Far bigger gap between ... the best state school and indies. Do you actually know what this gap is and if so perhaps you can enlighten me.

Who can really claim that all state education equal? I don't think anyone has actually tried to.

The bottom line is we still have a massive deficit and not even begun repaying all the debt which will cause major damage to all our children. None of the political parties represent the views of those who want the debt repaid - we have no one for whom to vote.

Greengrow not even begun repaying all the debt which will cause major damage to all our children sorry, can you elaborate on the specific damage that will be caused to all our children?

The interest cost. It's pretty simple. It's like a family budget. If you have massive debts life is harder. Look at both those caught into pay day loans and also those with very large mortgages and credit card debts. It is just common sense, but instead we bury our heads in the sand and continue to spend spend spend.

www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/