GCSE Options - Latin or Classical Civilisation

[mitbap]

DD wants to do Classics I think Latin. Any views on relative difficulty, usefulness and standing with universities much appreciated.

Latin is a respected subject and considered hard, definitely harder than Classical Civ - which is fine if your DD is capable but, otherwise, is she thinking that she might get a better grade in CC?

does your DD know that some academic snobs call Classical Civ 'Heroes for Zeroes'

You need cory: she is our resident Latin expert.

I've no real advice as to which will be better recieved, but I did Latin GCSE when I was at school, and there was a fair amount of history involved, as well as the language.

I really enjoyed it.

What's she going to do after? Classical civ means she'll learn greek myth & culture

If she wants to do Classics, I would have thought she would need Latin. Have you looked at entrance criteria for Universities?

At my school the ones who struggled with languages (including latin) (myself included ) did classical civilisation.

I also did it instead of history, as classical civilisation is the stories of pompeii etc, whilst history is knowing the facts and dates of 20th century.

BTW I got 10 GCSEs, all the others proper subjects, but in all honesty classical civilisation was the cop out subject.

If you dd can do Latin then I would say Latin much higher kudos.

Latin if she is prepared to put in the work. Much more intellectually challenging and interesting. However, you do have to be willing to memorise your grammar and vocab, so if she is very anti doing it, I wouldn't push it. As regards standing with universities, I think Latin probably wins hands down over Classical Civ.

Thanks all.
I did Latin many, many years ago when many state schools still did it - it was very dry but I enjoyed it finding it very easy to get to an A with 3 years study when the rest of the class had had 5 (we moved areas). As I remember it was all grammar and translation then with some literature. Now you can swap a literature paper for Roman History.
It used to be a requirement for some subjects like Eng Lit at Uni but don't think that's still the case.
CC is being offered by her school which is pretty academically selective and successful and has a beady eye on university requirements (solid traditional subjects, quality not quantity) so I'm a bit confused but am therefore assuming it's not considered in the same breath as media studies etc. Really I wanted an opinion on that - will it be a wasted option?
I believe DD finds Latin hard so wants to swap, I think she should persist. Teacher says we're probably talking about an A in Latin or A* in CC and the CC would be a useful addition as the History is all 20th Century.
I think it highly unlikely she'll want to do classics at University but believe that it's the Latin (or Greek) that would be a requirement so to do anyway. Re the snobbiness - sitting Classics at Oxbridge was once considered the ultimate interdisciplinary degree and is still popular - so I guess the GCSE is considered unnecessary in the same way that'd you'd make a mistake doing Law at school if you wanted to do it at university?
Far as I know she's no idea what she wants to do long term so other than this she'll be doing all the compulsories which at the school are sciences, maths, englishes, a modern language and a humanity (def history) then there are two more options to fill which we are currently debating.

Classical civilisation did not stop 3 girls in my group, going on to study archeology (sp.), classics and history, at good universities.

The ones who went to oxford and cambridge were latin students.

My school didn't offer media, pe, general studies, or the other softer subjects, and was academically selective.

BTW I would say encourage your dd to push for the A in latin as opposed to A* in CC.

I was given the option with Maths, to either work and get an A at higher tier, or put no effort in, and get a B at middle tier. I think the school had expected me to be like ooh i'll push myself harder, where as I was of the opinion 'take the easy route'.

I regret now looking back that I had not pushed myself, not that it's stopped me in any shape or form, but just think I should of put the effort in. Hindsight a wonderful thing, but I don't beat myself up over it, as all GCSEs really do, is open the door to next level, which they have done.

"sitting Classics at Oxbridge was once considered the ultimate interdisciplinary degree"

I think that you have to be careful with terminology. Classics and Classical Civilisation are different things. Like computing (writing programmes) and ICT (merely the usage of the aforementioned) are different.

Why does she want to do Classics if she doesn't enjoy Latin? I think she probably needs to reconsider.

When I studied Classics, Latin A-Level was certainly a requirement and as far as I recall so was Ancient Greek. Things may have changed as I am Very Old now and I realise that it may be harder to find a school which offers Latin and Greek.

But even if Latin isn't an entrance requirement it seems a bit perverse to pass up the opportunity to study it, with the long-term goal of studying it at university.

Aranea I think the OP's DD just fancies the classical civilisation GCSE rather than it being part of a "grand plan" to study classics.

Mitbap there always seems to be one option choice that causes diasgreement. I would say that Latin is a better choice and it seems to be enjoying a bit of a revival at the moment. But if your DD is adamant she doesn't want to do then I would have thought that CC would be a bit of a "fun" choice and ok if all the other subjects are academic.

My Latin GCSE, less than 10 years ago, has always been very well received, was used in my university studies of music and English and is proving invaluable now I'm learning another language. My school also offered Class Civ (academically selective, single sex, top 10, 50 entrants to Oxbridge in my year) but if you were bright you took Latin and the other option was seen as a nice extra humanity, kinda like RS. It was a 10th option in addition to your solid 9.

At my school, Latin was for the clever girls and Class. Civ. was for the thickos (well, relative thickos: v academically selective school!)

I still love Latin now.

Oh, I see, webwiz. Sorry, ignore me. I don't know anything about GCSEs, being as I say Very Old. But in the olden days Classical Civilisation was regarded as being a soft option for those not bright enough for Latin & Greek.

Latin (it is hard but if she is predicted an A that meaans she can do it) because it is one of those subjects that does train the brain making things like maths, science, history much easier for her.

I know the difference between Classics and Classical Civilisation but only the later is a GCSE option. To do Classics at University you definately need Latin and/or Greek A level - but no, I don't think she'll want to do this - slight possibility she may want to do History or Archaeology though for which both classical languages and classical civilisation seem to pop up as 'helpful'. Wasn't expecting DDs school to be putting on any courses for the 'relative thickos' which is why I'm a bit confused if it is considered as such. There is certainly no streaming aspect to what you can choose (other than the choice between dual and triple science is made much later).

Sounds very, very like my old school - does it begin with an H?

I think by relative thickos it's more people who are not so good at languages. Latin is regarded as a more academic option but Class Civ is still a realtively demanding GCSE and cetainly not on the level of 'meeja studies'. Think of it as a GCSE in ancient history and literature instead. Latin is up there as being super-demanding, like Chemistry and Maths, Class Civ isn't easy but it isn't as hard.

DS1 is doing Latin A level just now.
he did Latin at GCSE, did Greek for a year too and looked at classic civs or latin for A level.

What we gathered from talking to the classics dept was that Latin is generally considered the more rigourous. Classics is a good add on to Latin if your focus is towards a classics based degree, but for a stand alone subject Latin is better.

Classics as a stand alone is more of a filler for someone who would specialise in other subjects/areas at A level

frakkinaround - no it doesn't but it has an 'H' in it!

• pagwatch et al thanks - much as I thought really. Will continue to try to persuade towards the Latin but ultimately Classical Civilisation would not be a disaster and I would prefer it to PE or D&T etc.

CC GCSE is an academically rigorous subject/qualification though, is it not?

ie it's more comparable to history/geography/MFL rather than media studies or BTEC performing arts?

Infinitely preferable to PE and DT. Not as intellectually rigorous as Latin, but can still be a nice challenge. Fairly easy to get a B or C grade with little effort, relatively difficult to get an A or A*. You get out as much as you put in, really. The literature (all in translation) tests memory (no taking the text into your exam; you've got to know several books of the Osyssey/Iliad/tragedies/comedies/whatever very well indeed to be able to quote). The civilisation topics cover everything from the integration of religion and politics into everyday Athenian life to the archaeology and science behind the discoveries in Pompeii. The controlled assessment is a good way to prove your research and planning skills.
Incidentally, you can now read Classics at Oxford without any linguistic knowledge: they will train up a number of students to fluency in Latin or Greek from scratch. They are desperate! Average success rate of applicants is, they claim, 47%. Them's good odds. Especially when you consider something like English, at 21.3%...... Don't be so quick to knock it, I say. Well, really I say let her do both. Luvverly.

mitbap, I really wouldn't get too het up about it. I remember having a huge row with my parents about whether I should take Latin or not for GCSE and quite frankly it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to my degree, university or career. The only way it which it would have changed anything at all is that I would have studied a subject I enjoyed for a couple of years and too be quite honest, although it's not a big issue now, I'm still a little resentful about it twenty years later. (My parents were against the Latin and they won the debate, by the way.)

mitbap does the school start with T.

To reiterate what others have said Latin is more rigorous than Classical civilization. CC soft option. Study Latin and will help you with grammar and spelling for the rest of your life (unless you are having a G&T )