Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

Comprehensive school teaching - is it really this bad?

447 replies

jackstarbright · 10/12/2009 11:41

I have just found this very disturbing article published in the Reader a few months ago. It's Gabriella Gruder-Poni's essay, 'Scenes from a PGCE'. here.

It provides one woman's view of teaching methods in a comprehensive school. Any comments?

OP posts:
mamasmissionimpossible · 19/12/2009 21:27

I do hope the bubble doesn't burst for you xenia

Judy1234 · 19/12/2009 21:38

not perfect in any way. I bet most people haven't had divorce, parents' illness, deaths etc all crammed into the last few years. Whatever you earn those things can be pretty nasty but are just part of life. I am most of all lucky because I seem to be very healthy, optimistic and happy - that mental and physical health is actualyl the thing I appreciate most of all, which makes life good.

zanzibarmum · 20/12/2009 21:34

Xenia are you sure you are not Margaret Thatcher - didn't she say that the prable of the Good Samaritan was that he worked and had become rich so could help the man by the roadside.

zanzibarmum · 20/12/2009 21:40

millyR thank you for the compliment - of course you I right.

I remember now Mary worked in Joseph's shop annexed to the carprentry business. Luke tells us she did work long hours selling the wooden crafts. Her son however kept mixing with sinners and prostititues and the poor - he just wasn't competitive enough was he?

Judy1234 · 20/12/2009 22:16

I don't think he was given much choice of career but he ended up with such authority people gave up their lives, spouses and families to follow him around. He wasn't exactly unsuccessful and if you can convert a few loaves into very many (which is what clever bankers do and most of us fail at) then you're pretty much set up. he died at 33. The average lifespan in the Roman times was 20 - 30 years old so that was not actually a bad age, assuming he even existed of course.

zanzibarmum · 20/12/2009 22:55

Xenia - so you are not the catholic you claimed in another post. Who are you? Do you actually exist.

You must share with MN where your DC go to school so that we can avoid it.

Happy Christmas

Twinkleandpearls · 20/12/2009 22:56

That is a little rude zanzi

ZephirineDrouhin · 20/12/2009 23:38

Hollow lol at clever bankers turning the few loaves into many. That all worked out well didn't it?

Depressing article.

RubyBuckleberry · 22/12/2009 07:32

very depressing article - probably the worst case scenario, but some of those situations sound familiar

comprehensive teachers, and more specifically managers, seem to have lost focus - at every meeting i could (it became a standing joke) i implored heads of department / faculty to buy GOOD QUALITY dictionaries and thesauruses (thesaurii?) as i was constantly looking up new, interesting words with my classes only to find that the 'school' versions were extremely limited. we always ended up looking words upin my own personal oxford dictionary... i thought that was very poor - how were these children, who had a pretty limited vocabulary anyway, meant to learn any new and more precise words?

i could go on for hours about issues in comp. education

ruby
english teacher for six years in south london comps, now a mum ;)

RubyBuckleberry · 22/12/2009 07:39

i've just seen the pee debate lol - pee is a good starting point imo, but it should be made clear to students that they should not feel constrained by it. they can do eep, epe etc and then more elaborate and fluid ways of analysing can be encouraged. this is good practice.

ElenorRigby · 01/01/2010 20:39

"School system 'shameful', says CBI boss"

Richard Lambert said the education system is producing results 'we ought to be ashamed of'

The problems are rooted in a "culture of low aspiration" that predates the current government, but Labour has spent too much time "messing around" with the education system and its high spending strategy has been inefficient, he claims.

Source:

runningmom · 05/01/2010 13:11

I think in defence of teachers that we are constantly viewed in terms of our last set of exam results. The pressure is immense and particularly so when you have to justify every result to your Head. I am lucky that my results have always been pretty good but it does mean that you teach to the exam. However, I aim to do my best by every child I teach.
i think if the student were to be in the'real world' and not just a PHCE student (we've all been there) then she would (perhaps sadly) become a little more cynical and less Mihelle Pfeiffer in 'Dangerous MInds'.

Cortina · 05/01/2010 13:32

I hope the lady that wrote the article re-visits this thread again (assuming it really was her, and I think it was).

I'd be interested in her response to runningmom and other recent posters on this thread.

jackstarbright · 05/01/2010 15:24

On a more optimistic note. This article was in today's Guardian. Is Mossbourne academy's success down to its traditionalist headteacher?. Which shows what can be achieved with a comprehensive school.

OP posts:
jackstarbright · 05/01/2010 15:46

This is a better link. Mossbourne Academy

OP posts:
gobsmacked2 · 07/01/2010 05:52

emy72 brings up a very interesting question:

But we could start a whole new thread I think on the actual value of spending lots of time teaching classics. I, like the OP, was educated in Italy and spent half of my time at high school studying Latin, Ancient Greek, reading all the classics, Roman history, you name it. Although I think I had a very traditional and valuable education, as a teenager I WAS BORED STIFF and despite coming from an upper middle class family, I wished I learnt something useful and contemporary. Something I could actually relate to. Maybe we've gone to the other extreme, but I much much rather my children learnt ICT, languages and art than spend hours pouring over the classics and being as bored as I was - (suddenly yawns profusely and cringes at the thought of her school years).

I did not go to secondary school in Italy, so I'm not an authority on the liceo classico. I know Italians who weep with gratitude at the memory of their classical education; another Italian friend, while not bored, was envious, when she visited my school in New York, to see that the history teacher had postponed the scheduled lesson to discuss the fall of the Berlin Wall, which had happened the evening before. I get suspicious when people talk about "relevance," but the events of 1989 certainly qualify, if anything does!
How is art more "useful" or than Roman history? Absolutely none of the science I learned in school is useful to me in my daily life, but it was certainly interesting, and has value. And a good teacher can make any real subject interesting. That said, I do think that by secondary school students should be able to choose courses of study based on their interests; emy72 could have gone to a liceo scientifico, linguistico, or artistico ? wherever her talents and interests led her.
As for myself, I probably imbibed far too much math and art in my secondary education, in proportion to my interests and talents; in retrospect it was a mistake; I wish I had had some Latin. What I learned in those subjects has not become part of my inner landscape ? the only test of relevance I can think of, and of course it's a hopelessly vague one; Jane Austen writes, in Emma, about making "provision for the evening of life." But I wasn't at all bored in those classes, because my teachers were good, and who's to say that they might not have awakened in me some latent talent? (They didn't, but they certainly could have.) So I'm of two minds: students should choose; but they should also be exposed to unfamiliar subjects. I didn't have to study all that math, but in my school there was an unspoken expectation that ambitious students took math to the bitter end. So it's partly my fault, for succumbing to those subtle pressures. (Back then the scuttlebutt had it that college admissions offices wanted "well-rounded" students; now apparently they're looking for students with conspicuous passions. So I would probably fare better now. I was rebellious enough to drop physics in favor of Russian in my next to last year, but dropping math for yet another language, albeit an ancient one, seemed too risky.)
"Real subject"; "has value": in education one immediately runs into value judgments; they're unavoidable, and hard to justify. JaneiteQuiteRight writes, "ICT is rubbish though. My Yr 10 dd1 spent an hour 'learning' how to send an email last week - bonkers." Honestly, that was my impression of ICT too! Computer skills are useful, but I don't see why a whole course of study has to be devoted to teaching skills that most people easily pick up. If they're going to make a course, it should be computer programming.

I'm not at all surprised by what MillyR writes:
If there isn't a problem with the teaching of English in state schools, why do so many undergraduates arrive at university and struggle with their written English? ? I have some very clever students who are unable to express themselves due to their lack of skills in written English.

As for runningmom's comment ? what she describes is light years away from what I witnessed. Teaching to the test would have been a big step up from the inanity of the lessons I observed (eg tell the order of the planets as if it were a recipe; invent a spy identity for yourself based on a picture from a magazine ? a six-week unit!). Sure, there was plenty of talk about GCSE results, but that didn't mean that there was any sense of urgency about functional illiteracy that crippled so many students.
When I was doing the PGCE I knew I was in a parallel universe where up was down, left was right, war was peace. Since the PGCE I have taught in a variety of settings, some of which explicitly required me to teach to a test. None of it has made me cynical; on the contrary, my post-PGCE experiences have only reinforced my indignation at the injustice perpetrated by British schools. I have taught, for example, in an afterschool academic enrichment center in an immigrant neighbourhood. All the children came from households where English was not spoken. But a lot was expected of them, they worked hard, and their reading and writing skills were significantly better than those of most students in the schools I worked in during my PGCE.

Wastwinsetandpearls · 07/01/2010 23:30

What an interesting article jackstar, food for thought.

Cortina · 08/01/2010 11:32

Teaching to the test would have been a big step up from the inanity of the lessons I observed (eg tell the order of the planets as if it were a recipe; invent a spy identity for yourself based on a picture from a magazine ? a six-week unit!). Sure, there was plenty of talk about GCSE results, but that didn't mean that there was any sense of urgency about functional illiteracy that crippled so many students.

Just remarking that this sounds very much like a CSE English exam/syllabus circa 1985. These were seen as interesting questions to get children thinking. Are they all really inane questions? These students were apparently not up to O'level standard. I wonder if you would see someone who who was up to a grade 2 or grade 3 level in CSE English (in the old days) as functionally illiterate?

What does 'functional illiteracy' actually mean? I sense your standards and personal bar are very high. Nothing wrong in that.

To some 'functional illiteracy' might mean not being able to write a sentence at all or to have any English comprehension to others poor spelling and poor grammar.

claig · 09/01/2010 00:14

gobsmacked2, I am not a teacher, but I found your last post very interesting. I agree with your view that it is high standards and high expectations that make a real difference in education. Only yesterday there was a newspaper article about a 14 year old maths prodigy who is set to become the youngest Cambridge student since 1773.
A very interesting part of the article is the comments section, where the highest rated comment is "home educated, I knew it!".
This pithily sums up the role that the parents' high expectations played in the success of the child. This is very similar to your comment
"I have taught, for example, in an afterschool academic enrichment center in an immigrant neighbourhood. All the children came from households where English was not spoken. But a lot was expected of them, they worked hard, and their reading and writing skills were significantly better than those of most students in the schools I worked in during my PGCE."
I think schools should set similar high standards to help pupils whose parents are not driving them on.

I think testing and competition are great things, because they stretch children and make them achieve more. Testing exposes gaps in their knowledge, which they can then go back and fill. Tests are also fun and provide tangible evidence of success or failure, which can either spur pupils on to greater heights or indicate that they need to recap certain aspects.

notanidea · 09/01/2010 09:07

Been watching this thread.Claig you have a very good point that high standard and high expectations matter. If the children are brought up like this then hopefully, they will carry this trait in them for the rest of their life and will reflect in the jobs they do.

Cortina · 09/01/2010 11:32

I'd argue having a growth mindset matters more. What matters more is that children should be taught that their basic qualities can be developed. They should 'believe' that abilities can be expanded so change and growth are possible and their are many routes to future success.

High standards and high expectations alone can be dangerous, I've said why lots on this thread already I think .

jackstarbright · 11/01/2010 13:42

Hi all, especially Gobsmaked2 (waves across Atlantic and time zones).

This might be of interest. Wasted - The Betrayal of White Working Class and Black Caribbean Boys. It deals with many of the themes of this thread.

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page