Comprehensive school teaching - is it really this bad?

[jackstarbright]

I have just found this very disturbing article published in the Reader a few months ago. It's Gabriella Gruder-Poni's essay, 'Scenes from a PGCE'. here.

It provides one woman's view of teaching methods in a comprehensive school. Any comments?

I do think that the government were wrong to stop making a second language compulsory though.

Emailing is on the Y3 ICT curriculum, Janeite!

Feenie, I don't know. I don't work in a 'top' university. I haven't encountered any posh people since my undergraduate years; they could all be illiterate for all I know.

It is the state school students that are my concern, and most undergraduates are from state school.

Not according to Xenia - only 50% at 'good' universities.

Because the ones who couldn't write wouldn't previously have got into university but now the universities are commercial institutions. Never mind the IQ - feel the wallet.

I don't find that to be true. I have some very clever students who are unable to express themselves due to their lack of skills in written English.

It may be true on some courses at some universities, but in my experience the state system is letting down some really capable people.

Emy,

My reference to Latin and the classics was just an example, based on tispity's post. I think she was trying to prove what a superior education she had (courtesy of the tax payer) and I was agreeing with her. I just wonder why we have such a variation across state schools. There have been several examples of Latin on this thread, seemingly to emphasise education superiority - so it still has some merit.

WARNING: ONLY LOWER CASE LETTERS WILL BE USED BELOW

that's right jackstar. one of the best things that would result from getting rid of such variations would be a reduction in pseudo-intellectual snobbery.

the xenias of this country would no longer be able to justify being so pernickity and feeling overly smug about their ability to bankroll five sets of school fees. if one has blindly spent 100s of thousands on this foolish practice, then they are hardly going to acknowledge that state schools have anything positive to offer at all.

currently, my daughter attend prep school (mainly because she wanted to stay with the same group of friends), my son attends state primary. in all probability, my son will switch to our local boys' private at age 11 (no good state schools for boys nearby), while my daughter will move to my alma mater (i intend to move closer to camden school, currently in highgate but obviously that is no longer close enough!). my decision making is devoid of any blind adherence to a particular system or making myself feel better at the expense of other parents.

why should that even figure in any mature or rational decision making process? it's all a bit bling-bling to boast about overworking yourself in order to provide such commodities; it would be less vulgar if you 'pimped your ride'.

for the record, i do sit at home eating chocolates (rather than "donuts") while xenia goes about her superwoman routine though i am not "obese" but a size 6-8; proof enough that such sweeping generalisations are absolute nonsense.

Housewives are fatter than professional working women and the residents of Glasgow who feast on deep fried Mars bars are provably fatter and live many years shorter than those of Kensington.

I don't have to justify paying the 5 sets of school fees (there's another poster whose user name is i think fivesetsofschoolfees) because I just like to spend my money on that and have been quite happy with the schools and if everyone sent their children there it wouldn't be so good, would it? That's the point about human nature. The figgest survive. If you work very hard and the doctor earns the same as the dustman, it's just never worked. We triumphed over the neanderthals. There's competitiveness in most people. We want to do best for our own children at teh expense of the lumpen proletariat or those next door and if people move up others move down unless you're in some socialist paradise which pretends no children get anything wrong and cons them into thinking they are all brilliant.

Who are the "figgest"? !

One useful thing my DS is learning at lowly State Primary is how to touch type (as well as numeracy, literacy etc).

The yummy stay at home mummies in my area of the Home Counties seem fairly slim..all those hours spent working out while the little darlings are at school!

My DS isn't in a comprehensive school, but I still want standards to improve. Of course people are motivated by competition, but my concern isn't about getting more comprehensive school students into university at the expense of other students.

I don't think it benefits my children or the rest of society for huge numbers of children to leave school unable to punctuate, spell or structure a paragraph.

The nitpicking over typos and other mistakes on MN demonstrates how far removed people are from the reality of the appalling state of written English of young people. It really makes no difference if they are working in admin in an office or attending university; we need the majority of the population to have basic skills.

your post is brimming with arrogance; i hardly know which point to address first. it is unbelievable you could think like that; if these are the values which you have instilled in your chldren then they are likely to need more than a good school to sort their minds out in ten years time.

have you checked your family tree for any "lumpen proletariat"? as the child of a kensington mummy (of blue-blooded ancestry), i can assure you that not all of her friends are stick-thin. the people at the opposite end of the social spectrum to the "lumpen proletariat" actually consider themselves to be a world apart from people like yourself. no amount of effort or success on your part would change a thing; even through the generations.

finally, i do happen to think that all children are amazing; i make this fact known as much as i can. my son's best friend at state school is under Child Protection, his (largely absent) father is a heroin addict; this week he was learning whether he would be moved away from his vulnerable mother into care (probably while you were gazing out of your window admiring the view and feeling oh so successful and smug). these children have low self-esteem to deal with already, without being belittled and dismissed as inferior. we invite him round for sleepovers sometimes; he says that he feels as though he is participating in an episode of Cribs. it was a beautiful moment when his eyes lit up when he first noticed the swimming pool, playhouse or even the fridge. he wanted to try everything out all at once - the gadgets, the toys, the food.

People differ in their views which is why the internet is so great - you get to talk about things with people of different views. I am sure some parents at private schools are drug addicts but I certainly don't want my children to thin kthey're great. They know I love them but if something's wrong or if they're in the middle of the class not the top they need to know that. it's not a problem as I don't have particular aims or life paths laid out for them but I want them to be aware of that. I want races at school where someone is first because that's the real world and that may be why state school children in a non compettive we are all brilliant lovey dovey enviornment are not doing too well at leading companies and most other institutions. Private schools do all that much better although some new state sector schools and indeed some older ones do have elements of that private competitive system thankfully.

I've often posted on mumnet about my mother's move between classes. it's all very interesting and good fun and we're all out of Africa anyway if you go back far enough but we're only here out of Africa because we were driven by hormones and survival of the fittest to make it and it's why we each want to do best for our children. I suppose there might be the odd parent who might feed their child junk food adn not love it and pick the worst school around because that might make things fairer for those without advantages but I'd be hard pressed to find one.

I do think that the vast difference between various state schools is a much more important topic than the difference between state and private schools.

Why do some state schools offer Latin and Greek and oodles of sports and clubs and some offer bugger all? Why isn't there more interest in giving some state comprehensives a kick up the backside rather than foaming at the mouth at what 7% of the population enjoy (or put up with, in some cases)?

Metella - exactly!!!

Maybe it's easier to blame those who seem to have more, rather than to do something truly constructive for those who have less?

Well, that's it, jackstarbright. Let's shout and scream at the rolling lawns and posh buildings of the 7% rather than standing up and saying "This school should do better".

If school A is providing excellent educational, sporting and arts education and school B is not, then that is not simply due to parental input or loads of middle-class kids or whatever. It is an indication that school B uses its money in some other way (on what, I know not) or simply can't be arsed. That is the scandal and that is what people should be complaining about.

Well part of the reason that schools don't get better is that people cannot agree on what constitutes a good school.

Many people think that Greek and Latin are a waste of time, children shouldn't get much homework, double IT is fine as a compulsory GCSE subject, it isn't important to correct spelling, punctuation and grammar in a Geography essay and so on.

I agree with Metella. In a sense the private schools are an irrelevance as are the home educators. Virtually all children are in state schools and some are better than others. We used to cream off the clever children to grammar schools and that used to work for those creamed off but most areas don't have grammar schools now. Education, education, education of Labour has ensured a lot of money has been ploughed in including a lot of private mnoey into new things I cannot evn remebmer the names of like city academdies and schools with ridiculous claims to being a sports or music specialist when in fact their standards of sport or music are way way down and much much worse than any state grammar or private schools and it's a con. If it's a specialist music school then get them doing proper music. Compulsory choir with latin difficult parts to sing. Force every 11 or 12 year old to do grade 5 music theory. Make them take associated board music exams. If it's sports have the morning run every day for every one, get them to the top of the leagues including against private schools - be excellent.

But all those places are quite divisive and in a way simply perpetuate the errors of the grammar/secondary modern/ divide.

I'm not sure if I would want total uniformity though in schools. Parents should be able to pick Summer Hill (no obligation to attend lessons), Eton, the Purcell School, Manchester Grammar, or a very strict religious school but perhaps they shoudl noly get the choice if they pay and if my money is instead being used then because we need educated children we need to enforce more learning.

What do we need then? A school cert at 16 where you must do separate English li and english lang, maths, French, Geography, History, biology, physics, chemistry or two of those sciences? That's fine even for children with a low IQ as they just get low marks in it and plenty could fail.

Rules - making them stand up when the teacher comes in the room, calling male teachers Sir, strict uniform policies, removal of disruptive chidlren to special schools very quickly; single sex education; probably lots of other things too

Xenia you are clearly the sort of women who would have turned the pregnant Mary away from even the stable - a mother who should have been out working 7am-8pm as a tax collector rather than conceiving a child and being a stay at home mum. What values are you teaching your children by your attitudes?

What values are you teaching zanzibar? I think children should learn to work hard and compete. It's the way the world is, and it's about equipping them to live in that world.

Zanzibarmum, your post has got to be the most absurd MN post I have ever read! As if there would have been any such thing as a SAHM in Palestine 2,000 years ago. Read up on some anthropology and stop creating a version of human existence based on American TV shows from the 1950s.

Haw haw MillyR.

Quattrocento - we don't all need to compete ad infinitum and man/woman cannot live by competition alone. There's a lot more to life than competing with others, and competing is not a goal in itself. Only worth competing for the things you want and value.

The less competition the state sector has in schools the better as that benefits my children who are outside that sector.

Mary won the competition - she was pure and conceived without any original sin, the "best" in those terms. There were not many but only one.

As for working all women worked in those days and she was talking right up to birth just as I was cycling from the tube station almost 23 years ago 40 weeks pregnant with my second daughter and it did so much good - women need to keep fit, exercise, walk just as Mary did. Lying down, taking months off work before you give birth isn't really good for anyone.

Mostp arents love their children and work. The two are not contradictory. In fact it's often busy people like I am that people come to for help. I certainly don't blow my own trumpet in many ways that I might but my effectively means that vast swathes of all kinds of people turn to me for help never mind the children too. And I'm not complaining about that. I'm not about to share my house with homeless families but I do think woemn with money and power are in such a lovely position that they can actually help others. The wealth gives you the cacapity to do so in ways that count perhaps even more so that just helping those with your time.

It must be bloody marvellous to be perfect. Do you never get fed up of the sound of yourself?