Are private primaries really worth the money?

[wheelsonthebus]

What can be achieved at a private primary that state education and good tutoring can't achieve - and isn't it sometimes advantageous to be at a state school if you are planning to sit your child for a grammar (or doesn't it matter?). Thoughts please.

Good wraparound care - not available at our local state school.

Smaller class sizes.

Single sex education - boys able to runaround and do more sport.

Range of after school clubs.

High standards and expectations - table manners and manners in general are stressed as being very important.

This is a subject close to my heart at the moment. We are currently in the position of having to think about a change of primary school (for work reasons), and have viewed 3 prep schools in the past few weeks. We are in a grammar area, so I'm trying to decide what would be better- a state primary with lots of private tuition or a prep with smaller class sizes.

Our children are currently in an Ofsted outstanding state primary school. I also help in the school, so have quite a good insight.

I would say of the 3 prep schools we have visited, only one offered value for money and considerable advantages over our existing state school. Not surprisingly, this was the most expensive school and the advantages were lovely buildings and grounds, fantastic sports facilities such as indoor heated pool, and a clear all inclusive price policy which actually gave quite good value for money with extended hours included, all clubs etc.

The other 2 schools were actually more run down than our existing state school, and things like classroom displays and availability of teaching assistants were considerably worse. Therefore the child to teacher ratio wasn't too different to what they have now. The sports facilities were also pretty thin on the ground with lots of clubs run outside the school with extra charges. The main advantage to these schools was the extended hours (which you paid extra for).

In terms of 11 plus results, the best school is irrelevant as they aim for common entrance or preferably to keep you there for senior school. The other 2 were 11 plus feeders, and despite giving actual class time to practice papers (which state schools cannot do) their results were about a 50% pass rate which is the same as our state school.

So to summarise a very long post, imo if your aim is to pass the 11 plus there is probably not much between state school plus extra tutition versus prep school, but if you are after the sports facilities etc then prep might be better.

In our area the only grammar school is Catholic. As long as you pass the exam places are then allocated on the usual faith school priests letter how often you go to church basis.

For us there are several advantages. I feel the school has an ethos where it is cool to want to learn, I think dd is probably a child who would do well anywhere but not so ds. He is very clever but is a procrastinator and easily influenced. He is my brother all over again, he hated [rimary school and never caught up despite being quite smart he left school with no qualifications.

Also the school really values sport, art and music wheras our local primary seems to be a bit of a SATS factory.

starting a second language earlier
smaller class sizes
more music, art & sport
not constrained by the national curriculum

My eldest is heading for the local grammar having had 2 years of private primary education.
We took her out of the state primary because basically the head selects children in year 5 she thinks will pass and those children get some tution in the 11+ papers.
However that same head started a recorder group for year 2, we all went and bought recorders for the children, they had one lesson and it never happened again because the head was called away to meetings/had more important things to deal with.
It wasn't something I was prepared to risk happening with the 11+
As the 11+ requires some of the year 6 work before the NC reaches that stage in state school I quite like that the prep is working 18 months to 2 years ahead of the NC too.

The other concern for me was that it's SATs that the schools care about not the numbers they send to grammar school and SATs for year 6 happen within weeks of the 11+ in our area so you can guess where the focus is really.

I'm a state school teacher. Private primary school every time! Smaller classes and higher expectations of everything, eg behaviour, appearance, etc. Lots of state school teachers send their children to private primary schools - says it all!

wheelsonthebus - it very much depends where you are and on the individuals school - like all these questions really.

In some areas it will be advantageous to have been at a prep - and where I am lots of people go down the prep route in case they dont get into a grammar school to leave private as a fallback option (as obv its harder to go from state to private at secondary - especially if boys are entering at 13 - what would they do for the extra 2 years?)

It sounds like you have rather low expectations of your pupils, insider, which is a bit worrying. Not my experience at all of the teachers at my children's school, none of whom as far as I know send their children to prep school.
I can assure you that an awful lot more seems to be expected of state school teachers in terms of up to date classroom displays, white boards etc. I was quite shocked by the lethargic, tired and messy appearance of all the classrooms in two of the prep schools I looked round.

An awful lot is expected of state school teachers, far too much actually they seem to spend too much time parenting kids and not enough time teaching them if you ask me.
What I love about private primary is that the staff assume that you know how to feed your child 5 a day, that you won't smoke in their bedrooms or get pissed on a school night so they don't feel the need to spend a whole term on "health" which was basically propoganda from the local health authority via the kids to shove down the parents throats, a whole term of poster drawing, dvd's etc.

And do not get me started on the kids that canot wipe their own bums or dress themselves after PE in year 1, it's sorted by nursery at the prep.

It depends entirely on the individual private school andthe individual primary. My DD is at a fab private prep but the local primary is also very very good. If I wasn't in need of school based activities and also after single sex I would have tried for that primary.
Depends..

( FWIW it ALWAYS depends)

I would not be pleased if my children's teachers (in a state school) had the attitude of insider333.

My dds' teachers don't take the attitude, 'well we won't expect much because our children can go elsewhere.'

My dds' school expects very good behaviour from some very troubled children. As for the class sizes, they are in a class of about 25 but do much work in smaller groups. So, for most of their learning, they have a staff/child ratio of 1: 8.

Plus, is it important to go on about children's appearance?

Wheels, as others have said it varies hugely. But AFAIK there is no advantage at all in being at a state school for getting into grammar. I think they have to go purely by the exam result and whether you're in catchment. For residual places they may consider how far away you are.

I think a lot of state schools are excellent. Out of our three local ones two are excellent. Unfortunately for us the one which is our catchment school isn't.

One of the additional benefits to private primary is not having to deal with the NC or SATS. The amount of work they actually do in class is more as is the homework. Ds started in reception last year knowing how to write his letters. He now does the most beautiful cursive writing style that I'm actually quite envious.

I debated a long time over whether to bother with private school at primary age. A lot of my friends were of a persuasive view that if children don't develop an interest in learning at primary age it is too late by the time they reach secondary.

Out of the three state schools I visited when deciding one had a head who had been in charge for 8 years and the school was then in the top 20 nationwide. The classroom work I saw was deeply uninspiring and definitely a case of teaching to SATs. One (our catchment) the head didn't even know the names of the year 6s showing us round. One was fab with an inspirational head. I had difficulty choosing between that and private but the lack of wraparound care and complete absence of holiday club (other than 3 weeks in the summer of 10am to 3pm) was the decider.

The state school I liked had 32 in the class with one teacher and one TA. Our private school has 16 with one teacher and TA. There is simply no place for a child to hide. They have picked up early that ds may have (minor) SN and he is being assessed. I wonder if he was in a class of 32 whether that would have happened - not a naughty boy but wasn't engaging sufficiently in class and working to the level of his ability.

mily molly moo - I don't think your accusation over getting dressed and wiping bottoms is fair.

Both state and private schools encourage children to be independent in this area as soon as possible.

Parents who send their children to private schools do not necessarily give their children healthier food and state schools do not usually spend a whole term on this topic.

As pagwatch and others have said the choice of which type of education to go for depends so much on the quality of the local state and private schools, and whether you live near a good private school or not. Different schools suit different children.

Private is not automatically better at primary level in every aspect.

i'm getting confused on the grammar front; other posters have said that they do discriminate in favour of state schools. Do some do and others not -
Also, do most private schools prepare people for the 11+ or do people generally pay private and pay tutors (horrendous costs!)
Am so confused. MY dc are in a mediocre state primary (Ofsted 'satisfactory') but the financial jump to private is huge for us.

Ds's school doesn't prepare for 11+ but I since they are supposed to be working to a higher level than state schools by that age I doubt it will be an issue. I plan to get some practice papers if ds turns out to be bright enough to do the test.

There was a link on here to an article in the Guardian re 11+ prep and people paying £100 per tutor session (2 hrs) for their dcs. Average spend on tutor £3000. I suppose that is cheaper than private school fees but does seem a huge amount of tutoring - equivalent to 60 hours.

Millymollymoo - why on earth did you leave it up to the nursery at the prep to sort out bum-wiping and getting dressed? Your job surely.....?

And please don't assume all state schools are the same with low-achieving, junk-food-eating, drug-taking parents. Some state schools are predominantly (and shhhh please don't tell anyone cos they'll all want to send their kids) middle class with high numbers of children doing very well academically.

Er I didn't ... my point being that the children in the prep can wipe their own bums, shame the year 2 children at the state school we had an unfortunate year or so at weren't capable of the same.

And that was a very middle class ofstead outstanding school actaully, all the more shocking.

wheels
private schools don't prepare children for 11+ in my experience.
They do however teach children basic exam type skills which are needed for entrance exams into senior independent schools and those skills are relevent to the Grammar schools 11+

My children would never ever get extra tutoring. I would never push my child in order to squeeze a place - especially having seen how hard the work is and how challengedthe boys are who are at the bottom of some of the classes.

I will have the same approach with DD. She gets in on merit with no other coaching or I send her somewhere else.

Titchy - and some state schools also have high numbers of high achieveing chidren who have very disadvantageous backgrounds.

Insider - and many (probably MOST) state sector teachers send thier children to state schools - so that 'says it all really' too! One of the teacher parents I know teaches in a private school and is sending her DC to state as she says so many private schools have the teachers who can't manage in other circumstances!

I have ni idea what the OP should do - I have no view on private v state on principle, if it's an option the OP can make the answer can ONLY be based on what each of the schools is like, despite sector, and what the child is like. The answer cannot be based on generalised prejudicial views either way!

DDs school does some preparation for 11+. Quite a lot of parents want their kids to have a shot at residual places at a couple of good grammars for which we're out of catchment. They also prepare for private school exams - essentially they see one of their functions to be getting kids into schools which (a) the families prefer and (b) are appropriate for each child.

Wheels, if you're thinking of using a private school, don't be afraid to grill them on what they do, leavers destinations, what they perceive their 'added value' to be. A good school will be more than happy to provide information.

Blu - yes you're quite quite right

MMM - I have to say I think you'd find that a class of (presumably) NT children not being able to wipe their own arse at 7 is extremely unusual. Actually any primary child doing a poo at school is unusual....

To the OP - it makes no difference at secondary level whether private/state/tutored - places are offered based on entrance exam results. At university level it can, in a very few instances, be sligthly advantageous if your child goes to a significanly under-performing state school. But you'd have to be sure that the slight advantage you might get by attending that sort of school isn't going to be outweighed by the inevitable lower grades you'd achieve.

However OP a crap state school plus a tutor probably ain't going to cut the mustard. A good state school and a tutor, or a private school almost certainly will be enough. Provided your child is academically able enough of course.

I'm not saying all 30 were incapable or that they only wiped after a poo, is that what you'd expect ?

Depends on schools and child.

Both mine were state until September this year. Fab state school, loved the teachers etc, however, both not getting what they needed out of it for different reasons.

Now go to independent junior school which is part of an independent grammar. Smaller class, all of a similar ability and good teachers.

Both children now flying (by their standards!).

Blu - "...so many private schools have the teachers who can't manage in other circumstances!" That cuts both ways. As in all walks of life, some are shoite, some are brilliant and some are in the middle in BOTH sectors.