Ending Educational Hypocrisy on Mumsnet

[zanzibarmum]

Do you think we might end educational hypocrisy on these threads by having to declare what type of school our DC go to - you know the sort of thing the mumsnetter who wants to abolish faith schools on the grounds of fairness while sending own DC to private schools or the mum whose children are in high-performing postcode protected state schools and wanting to abolish GS.

Or is the apparent inherent hypocrisy ('do as I say not as I do') so favoured by politicians and some MNs part of the fun.

"the mumsnetter who wants to abolish faith schools on the grounds of fairness while sending own DC to private schools"

Is it hypocritical to send my own child to a private school (because we're lucky enough to have sufficient money and would rather spend it on education than on material goods) but to also object to the unfairness of parts of the state sector when I see the discrimination in action on my neighbours kids? I'm lucky, I know it, we have more choices than others - so does that mean that my attitude should just be 'I'm all right Jack' and not campaign for change for those who aren't as lucky? That seems to be the logic of the OP.

I have not problem with private schools. I have a problem with faith schools that encourage and reinforce a them and us attitude.

On of the joys of MN is that unlike real life you can log in and immediately be privy to all sorts of opinions on things that would never cross your radar in RL - when I log on for a few spare mins and fg into the 'last 15 mins' section I discover all sorts of stuff about childmodelling, chicken rearing, mysterous rashes... that I would never have botehred to seek out otherwise And the educaton section is no exception - very enlightening to have such a kaleidoscope of views. Except for some posters who only ever make the same point repeatedly so that anyuone could write their posts (eg Xenai, UQD), others do actually respond, engage and debate the points raised.
As to categories, it would be very tedious to point out at the beginning of every post that eg I attended a state school in a working class area, then nearby grammar (no tutoring or coaching in those days and a red brick university becase even at the grammar none of the teachers considered Oxbridge to be an option as it was for rich people... DH attended a sink comp in W London and did not go to uni, but has made a good income in a non-graduate job. DSC attended church schools, and we have one DC is a state primary and another in very academinc selective independen with eye-watering fees...

Dd goes to local state secondary. It's not the catchment school (which is an academy) as that did not have disabled access, but the next one along. Ds goes to catchment state junior. Area is mainly a mix of lower middle class with some council housing. It was a question of where we could get a mortgage: when we married this was one of the cheapest parts of town. Have no plans to move or change schools.

LynetteScavo - all French state schools are secular and there is no place for any sort of religion in state schools.

The majority of "private schools" (which are actually heavily state subsidised, because most costs, including teachers' salaries, are met by the state, and teachers remain employees of the state) are Catholic. There are a smattering of other religious schools, and a very few secular private schools. All three of our children attend secular schools - the DSSs go to their local state collège (comprehensive junior high school) and DD goes to a private bilingual school, which is secular. I know of four private and secular schools in Paris/the Paris area where I would consider sending DD.

DP is atheist-Jewish and I am atheist-Anglican. Both of us would prefer the children to remain in secular schools throughout. We would never contemplate a Jewish school (these are heavy-duty religious). We might, if push came to academic shove, contemplate a central Paris Catholic-lite school, just to get a better education. But it is unlikely to come to that.

As I said earlier why is is 'hypocritical' to care about the education of children less fortunate than one's own?

It isn't hypocritical and that is why I send DSs to private school and want everyone to be given a voucher so they can send their DCs to a private or very good state school regardless of how rich they are.

I have to admit to wondering if any MNers fitted into one or other of the 'five parental tribes' outlined in this weekends style magazine (Sunday Times). I suspect there are a few 'state-school snobs'.

Bonsoir - do you seriously object to the celebration of Christmas in schools. Does secular mean divorced from culture as well as religion?

i think state schools should either celebrate all festivals of all cultures and religions or none.
so therefore,if they don't do diwali then why should they do christmas?
if they skip Eid why do easter?

Absolutely. The trouble with celebrating Christmas is that you then have to celebrate a whole bunch of other festivities in order to be "fair". Much easier just to leave it all out!

I already get pretty busy dealing with both Jewish and Christian festivities in our household - I've only just got over Rosh Hashana and Kippour and now it's Christmas. Imagine if school went in for all that - when would the children learn anything?

They don't have to be dealt with in an all consuming way or in a way that precludes learning. By ruling out cultural celebrations in schools an opportunity to prepare our children for 'multicultural living' has been missed. Don't you think?

I think some posters must be jealous.

You see all these anxious 11+ posters, and people posting "my dd is grammer (sic) material" and you know that not all the dcs will have got in.

Bet you anything that some of these people, who having moved to Kent, Bucks etc and spent gazillions on a house in the expectation that their dcs will get into a grammar school, will become the most rampant anti-grammar brigade when they are faced with what are essentially secondary moderns.

I went to a grammar school. I wish my dcs could attend one. I'd like MORE grammar schools. So there. When I hear about a relative's dcs learning Greek and Latin I think it is unfair that some pupils are afforded the opportunity to have a more academic education because of where they live. But to call for grammar schools' abolition would be churlish.

Not at all - plenty of multicultural living goes on outside school, and in a better, more authentic way IMVHO. I'd much rather my DD went to lunch and a playdate at someone else's other-culture home and got a good and proper dose of it than had some school-bastardised version of other-culture.

The hypocrisy which most annoys me is those posters with an idealised view of the value of comprehensive education who attended private or grammar schools themselves.

What's wrong with having an idealised view?

High expectations are key to educational achievement (so says the research).

By idealised I mean e.g thinking that all we need is an injection of middle class kids to attend a failing comp and the school will improve overnight.

I agree with you there. The notion that middle class kids are some kind of magic bullet totally baffles me.

self conscious disclosure of schools attended?add salary too - make it a right good fight

It is politically convenient for Labour politicians to 'blame' middle class parents for the failure of schools because they withdraw their childen. Hence the ridiculous notion that middle class kids can 'improve a failing school' by their mere presence.

The hypocracy is these Labour politicians who spout this guff often went to private school themselves or even sent their cildren to private school. Where they or their kids didn't go to a private school it is amazing how they were able to get them into a fantastic well resourced state grammar school - not a sink school at all.

I do wish we had secular schools here

Of course middle class pupils bring the standards up - aren't any of you watching Waterloo Road - tells us exactly how it is....

Zanzi, I think you continue to miss my point. Parents make choices or not about their kids' education based on their natural desire to get the best for their kids together with and sometimes vs their personal moral codes. For me private is morally better than faith (given that I haven't got a faith and given that taxpayers are therefore relieved of the burden of educating my kids who are already relatively academically privileged) but I have friends (who have or semi have a faith) who feel very differently and have opted for a faith school because according to their principles it's wrong to pay for education. I think, by and large, parents' choices and ways through the ethical minefield have to be respected as long as the Govt allows and encourages those choices. I think to dismiss people's very heart felt objections to the inequities which exist in the state system as hypocrisy is quite wrong. In my case I feel that the particular inequalities in my area which have led to schools being segregated by faith and with that by ethnicity and by social class is a very important reason for me to feel that it is less moral to have any part of that than to opt out of it completely. Yes, the fact that I'm able to pay for private education (just) makes me privileged compared to most but it doesn't invalidate my objections to the way state education works in my area.

Fivecandles - I get it now. You are in favour of integrated education for children of all faiths, social classes and ethnic groups but not for your children in a socially and academically private schools.

I have no problem with parents making the right decisions for their children (what else can we do) but I do think there is hypocrisy by those who want to limit the choice of others (abolish faith schools) or be opposed to selection but then send their child to a private or GS (like Harriet Harman)