Ending Educational Hypocrisy on Mumsnet

[zanzibarmum]

Do you think we might end educational hypocrisy on these threads by having to declare what type of school our DC go to - you know the sort of thing the mumsnetter who wants to abolish faith schools on the grounds of fairness while sending own DC to private schools or the mum whose children are in high-performing postcode protected state schools and wanting to abolish GS.

Or is the apparent inherent hypocrisy ('do as I say not as I do') so favoured by politicians and some MNs part of the fun.

what I can't bear are the people who believe that other people are calling for the abolition of a certain type of school because their child can't get into them

why people have to assume it's jealousy all the time I do not know

we moved where we are now with very little knowledge of what the schools were like because dh and I were your typical full time working people who never spent more than 0.00001 second considering what it was like having a child

when we did have children, we discovered the state school nearest to us was perfectly passable but most people tried to get into the church school because it was perceived as being better

given that dh and I are atheists and completely believe in our children going to school with all the local children, we quite happily sent them to the local school which has (luckily for us and through no engineering on our part) gone up in the world and is doing v well now (although I think schools have cycles and at some point, it will probably dip again)

I don't like church schools because they discriminate on their intake by means of religion. I think if taxes have to pay for state schools, then those schools should and must be open for all. I wouldn't send my children there no matter how good the school was because we aren't religious but I think it is wrong that people who either are religious or pretend to be religious have about double the schools open to them than anyone who isn't religious.

I dislike the lazy 'jealous' objection. I have ideological objections to certain types of school. I wouldn't call for private school to be 'abolished' but I would argue that is wrong to use them. And I wouldn't use them of course. State schools are a different matter, and I feel fairly comfortable arguing for, and voting for if it were an option, in favour of all state schools being non-denominational and non-selective, just as others can use their democratic right to vote for an alternative view. I have a religious faith BTW, and am practising. My DC go to the local non-denominational school and will go on to the local comprehensive. I teach in a National Challenge comprehensive school. I practise what I preach...

Double the schools foxinsocks? Is that true -- that there are as many religiously-selevtive state schoools as religiously non-selective? Surely not!

And they wouldn't be open every religion, would they?

There is a fair bit of hypocracy.

There is a poster, can't remember her name, but she is so nasty about independent schools and usually reels out that only 7% of the nation's children go and state schools are fine for the other 93%.

It turns out that her own daughter goes to a grammar school, so doesn't really mix with many of the 93% either!

On a serious note, parents send their children to the best school that they are able to. They may have enhanced choices by having money, or restricted choices through lack of transportation. But the vast majority do their very best by their own children.

It is fine to talk about generalities for ost things (eg the 93% ad nauseam statistic), but the thing that really matters to any individual here are the choices in their own particular area. It isn't really very helpful to know that someone is alright jack in the state sector because her DD goes to grammar school, when so few areas actually ahve grammar schools.

well in the borough we are in now, we are within walking distances of 2 primaries, 1 of which is CofE meaning that those who are religious, on our street, could choose 2 schools, we could only 'choose' 1

in our old borough, for secondary school, unless you were catholic or CofE, you had one option you could get into

I'm sure it depends on region and the other thing that isn't always mentioned in these threads is that people's experience is very much about where they live. Large cities and London have different issues to rural areas I would imagine.

also I should say now, I have no problem with where people send their children. I have a problem with the whole system not the individuals.

our local primary is CofE controlled but doesn't select on religious criteria, or teach in a manner which is offensive to atheists and other non-Christians. I am an atheist (although positive towards faith) and my atheist children have had no problems at that school. Most CofE schools are similar I think. So I don't think it is right to regard such schools as in any way unavailable to non-Christians.

sorry deadworm, what I meant is that in most areas there will be a religious option meaning that those who are religious automatically have twice the option of someone who can't send their child to that school because they don't meet the criteria (so those who are religious could choose the state school or the religious school whereas those who aren't religious wouldn't have that choice, though using choice is always a bad word but you know what I mean)

The 'religious' aren't homogenous though foxinsocks.

I like religious schools - religious people self-select into them, meaning that other schools are free of them

Well for primary schools I don't think there was a single one in our area that had a religious criterion for entry; and for secondary schools there was just one with a religous selection criterion amongst about five possible schools.

Am I wrong to think that the numerousness of CofE schools is a red herring because most of them don't select on religious criteria?

no but I don't see why they have to have different schools

if it makes no difference when they are there deadworm, then what is the point of them

Not true in my case though Anna - so you might have to put up with some of us...

I meant no to fallenmadonna

they certainly select on religion in london deadworm - can't vouch for them all but have not come across one that doesn't

Well, no fox, I don't see why they have to have separate school either. You were referring to 'religious' schools and the 'the religious' when in fact there are different denominations, and a Baptist wouldn't necessarily have a Catholic or Jewish school available to them just because they all come under the 'religious' banner.

Oh there are always some silly mothers at DD's school who want to celebrate Christmas, but they are a minority and will never ever get their way. If you seriously want the religious thing there are loads and loads of schools that do it in Paris, in all shapes and colours.

funnily enough, our local CofE school does take other denominations (as one of its criteria) but not sure the Catholic school does.

In fact, I underestimated. On my street, I could apply to 3 schools - 1 is catholic, 1 is CofE and 1 is normal state school and 2 of those, we would stand no chance of entry.

As I said, I have no problem with the individuals using the system as it is. I just don't like the system.

Ah well, you're glad you're in Paris then. You'd be hard pushed to find a school in the UK that didn't celebrate Christmas in some form. Apart from I suppose those which are non-Christian religions.

Me neither fox. I'm not arguing with you about that.

I do wonder though why it never seems to be a political issue.

I don't know Fallen

maybe it's because those all powerful use them (the Blairs, think Cameron's children go to a church school)

I suppose the church and power have historically gone together in this country

"On a serious note, parents send their children to the best school that they are able ... the vast majority do their very best by their own children."

This is the moment when I feel I really don't belong on MN (grim smiley face here). We traded off a load of other factors (bigger house, less commuting, more countryside) and chose to send DC to a very average school, which feeds to rather below average high schools -- we could have made quite different choices, if we were really trying for 'the very best' for DC. I know local people who turn their noses up at the school DC attend, as would many MNers.

But hey ho! At least I can't be accused of hypocrisy... not least because I'm pretty on educational ideals, anyway .

I'm a state primary then direct grant girl myself - pure Rotters Club territory if you saw that on TV. DCs go to a private primary, though if we lived in catchment for the v gd primary in town they would go there. Appreciate that I'm lucky to be able to pay.

It is sometimes interesting to hear where people actually send their kids. Must admit to wry smiles when eg on the Today Programme they talk about education/go to local primary whatever and I find myself thinking I bet most of you were privately educated and I bet practically all of you privately educate your children. (Okay I know Robert Peston an exception. But wasn't Ed Sturton (sp?) moaning that he worried about the school fees when he was sacked...). Not that I can sit in any judgement of course but I do wonder sometimes how much they know about the schools/edn issues they often discuss.

Are you serious Anna...they don't do Christmas at your DC's school?

My DC's all go to faith schools, but deep down I don't really think there should be any state faith schools.

I can't afford to send all 3DC's to private schools, but am not against private schools any more than I am against other people driving very expensive cars. I'm not sure I would indulge in either if I could afford to, but I might.

I'm very much against grammar schools. The grammar schools here are "outstanding" and the secondary mnoderns "satisfactory" Why does a bright child deserve a better education than an average child? I'm very much for comprehensives.

I'm for all boys schools.....but I'm against all girls schools. Which doesn't really work int eh real world, does it!

I hope you are making a note of all this so you can pick me up if you see me being hypocrytical.

My younger children go to our local catchment primary school. My eldest goes to the local (well below-average GCSE results) comp. I strongly believe in non-selective state education and I also strongly believe that my children will not be in any way harmed by my having put my money where my mouth is. Much of this 'good school' debate is complete bollocks. Private schools and grammar schools educate children from a very narrow section of society. These children are already hugely advantaged, and it is the advantages they gain from their home enviroment that will ensure they succeed in life not whether they went to St Custards or Bash St Comp.