What should dd (yr 12) be doing now to help her chances of law at Oxford?

[mamhaf]

She's studying English, Spanish and History and the Welsh Baccalaureate in lower sixth and thinks she'd like to apply to Oxford to read law.

She knows it's going to be phenomenally competitive and I'm not sure her state school will give her the kind of support she'll need.

Any tips please?

She has 13 GCSEs A to C grades (the As were in her A'level subjects, and has a B at maths)

She's trying to find a law firm which will give her work experience - I would think that's a minimum she'll need though.

What about preparation for university interviews?

tia

Thanks Tomatillo (for your very detailed advice, that's going to be a huge help, especially the links).

Frakula - yes, we're in Wales - Cardiff in fact. If you could ask your Dad about work experience, that would be very helpful.

We do have some contacts in Spain, although not with any lawyers, but going there for work experience is a very interesting thought - there's no reason why she shouldn't go there next year - perhaps Easter or in the summer.

The only person Daddy knows is the mercantile judge which may or may not be any help! Is she looking for barrister, solicitor, not fussed?

Hope you don't mind me saying this, but just a reminder that she shouldn't reach a stage where getting to study law at Oxford is the be all and end all of her life - she does need to relax and keep a wider perspective on things, and she may need your help with this.

And if she does get in, the biggest problem that students tend to have is actually with time management - they are very much thrown in at the deep end and left to plan their own time, and students who haven't done this before (which may tend to be the private school pupils to some extent) can easily get behind, lose confidence in their abilities, and start to spiral downhill rather. Something to bear in mind ?

Another (Oxbridge) academic here, though not a lawyer. Seconding everything tomatillo says - spot on. GCSEs may be a problem, but it really does depend on the school she's at now as admissions tutors take that carefully into consideration. One thing to note is that Oxford is now 'deselecting' much more than it used to (i.e. not inviting a certain proportion of candidates for interview). This is much commoner in those subjects - like law - that now have a centralised admissions test - they will deselect the lower rungs on the basis of results in it.

Frakula - she's not bothered where the work experience is - ideally she'd like a range of experience because she doesn't know yet whether her interest might be as a barrister or solicitor, or even if it would be the thing for her at all.

Her interest was whetted by a visit to a court while on journalism work experience - that's when she thought law might hold potential.

Grendelsmum - I think you're absolutely right, and she's not obsessing about it - she has a range of other interest including sport and music.

But she's very aware that she will need to put in her UCAS application next year and needs an idea of where she wants to go. Plus if she does try for Oxford, she'd need to start earlier.

She's slightly concerned that as a state school pupil she might not feel she fits in at Oxford, so needs to arrange a visit.

Arionater - I'd be interested in your perspective on that - in fact is there anyone else too who can give any advice on how well state school pupils fare at Oxbridge, and what are the factors that influence how they fit in?

She's also interested in UCL - it's the courses on offer that she's thinking about at rather than dreaming spires, but is also conscious that an Oxford degree tends to open more doors.

Time management is something her school is very hot on - they gave excellent support for that during the run-up to GCSEs and are now pushing that further at AS levels.

The Welsh Bac also fosters independent work, so (hopefully) all of this will stand her in good stead at university, wherever she goes.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

Mamhaf
I saw details of this summer school in DH's alumni magazine. It also gives links to other schemes.
I know that it is possible for any potential student to visit Oxford colleges post AS as well, but the summer schools are longer and more intensive.
Good luck. Law has been very oversubscribed for many years and the entry qualifications of students are incredibly high, so your DD has to work very hard to get a place either at Oxford or another good university.

Mamhaf - just on the state school point that you raise above. There are more undergraduates from state school at Oxford than from independent schools. Of course many would say that the number of state school students should be higher still but the point remains that she will be in the majority rather than the minority as a state school student. The admissions statistics for last year are on the university website here For example, for law you can see that 112 accepted students were from the maintained sector and 50 from the independent sector.
The best thing that she can do is, as you say, go down and have a look, perhaps via one of the open days. I went to Oxford from a 'bog-standard' state school some years ago now and it was never an issue and the proportion of state school students has risen considerably since that point. I have to say that I find it difficult to remember which of my students went to state schools and which went to independent schools, especially after the first term. This is particularly the case in a subject like Law where most students are studying it for the first time so no-one has the advantage of having been pushed in the subject at school.

Can I also echo what Grendelsmum has said about it not dominating her life (most applicants for law won't get in but the vast majority will go to another excellent university). Arionater also makes an important point about invitations for interview - far fewer candidates are now invited up for interview and that decision is largely on achieved and predicted results (including in the LNAT). It's impossible to comment on her GCSE results without more background about her and the school (which would clearly be inappropriate here) but the tutors will look carefully at the specific school and not simply the fact that it is 'state' as there are huge variations within the state sector. The most important things she can do to get an interview are to have an excellent LNAT score and to have references that confidently predict excellence in her current studies.

Best of luck to her in working out what she would like to do and in her studies this year. Oh and many final year law students have no real idea as to whether they'd like to be a solicitor or a barrister either so not something to worry about deciding now!

Some good websites for finding firms in your area are:

Legal 500

Law Society

DH's cousin is studying Law at Manchester and she has found vacation work at firms. The Legal 500 will show you the larger firms, the law Society one you can put your postcode in and find the 50 firms closest to your home.

Good luck to your DD, she sounds very focussed

Mamhaf when DH got himself work experience in the 6th form he contacted loads of local solicitors to see who would be prepared to help him, it wasn't a case of him or his parents knowing anyone or anything like that, so if you don't know anyone don't let that put you off.

I agree that a visit is crucial. The state school DH and I went to was very proactive with Oxbridge applications for 6th formers, they invited students they thought might be interested/of a high enough standard to join a study group, and organised a trip to both Oxford and Cambridge, staying in a college at both and going to various talks.

DH and I both went. I decided definitively as a result that it wasn't for me, and I wouldn't fit in, so dropped out of the study group and applied to 'normal' universities . DH felt he would fit in, and took the opportunity to set up appointments with people at the colleges he was interested in to take place while we were there, so he was being very proactive in terms of his application, which I'm sure helped.

I work in Legal Careers.

I don't really think it matters whether you do a non law degree and then the GDL or a law degree. Do be aware of the cost - a top notch postgraduate GDL is about £8000K and the LPC (vocational course that everyone wants to do) is about £12000K.

After LPC you need a two year training contract where you are paid, from £16,000 to £95,000 (american city law firms) a year depending on type of law and firm. You tend to apply for training contracts two years in advance, so whilst at university if doing a law degree. Bigger commercial law firms will pay all or part of post grad fees but very competitive. Think 1000 applications for 10 places.

On top of great academics you need soft skills experience and this is where the private system wins hands downs. But there are loads of opportunities that you can access yourself:

• voluntary work, CAB, Law Centres, anything quasi legal, look at do.it.org the volunteer website
• anything team orientated (sport, music etc...)
• positions of responsibility (at uni secretary, chair of any societies)
• fundraising, organising events at uni
• write for the student newspaper
• speak to all friends and family to see if anyone works in a law firm and get you some work experience
• contact local courts/CPS they often have opportunities for work experience
• any advocacy opportunites, mooting, debating, negotiating experience
• lastly if you have to work try and make it as commercial as possible, law firms love "commercially aware" candidates

The statistics are even worse for the bar and only totally committed and top notch candidates will succeed.
Go to the bar council website for exact figures. But of all the graduates from the BVC, only one third got a pupillage and of that third about only another quarter got a tenancy. So only 1 in 9 are now working as barristers.

Good websites:
The law society
The bar council
lawcareers.net
chambersandpartners

Hope that is helpful

"There are more undergraduates from state school at Oxford than from independent schools."
However, the vast majority of school pupils in England and Wales go to comprehensive schools and only 19.8% of successful applicants to Oxford came from comprehensives. 15.8% came from grammar schools (which educate a minority of state school pupils, arguably a minority of those pupils of Oxbridge standard).
DH looks at the matriculation list from his old college every year and is always disappointed with the number of new students coming from the mainstream of English/Welsh schools.

Thanks again for the great advice, it's all extremely helpful.

The summer school looks ideal - I'll ask her to set up an alert for it.

She's in a Welsh medium comprehensive school, which has helped her with her language skills but, I fear, may not have helped her enough with science and maths - her peers who did better in those subjects seem to be from families with science backgrounds themselves whereas I'm a humanities graduate and dh doesn't have a qualification to his name!

Moid - I'd be interested to know why you think the private sector wins hands down with "softer" skills. I've been following with interest the other thread on education about state school teachers who send their children to private schools.

I think dd will be ok in those 'softer' areas - she is very sociable, does well in leadership situations (she carries out some sports coaching for example), and, fingers crossed, is hoping to start a pt job soon in retail - she had an interview this week.

But she does need to develop debating skills and critical thinking - any other ideas to help with that are very welcome - she will join the school debating society and dh and I will try to argue a bit more with her about current affairs.

I've also advised her to ask her personal tutor which (if any) of her teachers are Oxbridge graduates and if they might be able to mentor her. I know one teacher was, but he's left the school.

Lilymaid - not at all suggesting that the current mix is as it should be (though note that another 12.6 are from 6th form colleges and FE colleges many of whom would have been at comps before). I went to a very average comp myself where there was no real experience of sending people to Oxford. It's just that I don't think state school pupils - including Mamhaf's DD - need to worry about 'fitting in'. That fear is something that does put a lot of good students off from applying in the first place. I know before I went I worried that everyone would be very wealthy, would have vast amount to spend on clothes and going out and that I'd risk social isolation by not knowing what to do with the right bits of cutlery! There can be a perception that the college will be dominated by boarding school types with country houses and polo ponies whereas most people are from very ordinary backgrounds. Of course many people who go to independent schools are also not that wealthy - e.g. DH was a scholarship boy from a very ordinary family but went to a very well-known school. On the stats he would have been another independent boy but was first in family to go to uni.

Whatever the solution to making sure that the brightest get in whatever their background, I don't think the individual student need fear that they will stand-out or fail to fit in through their school background.

mamhaf - my impression is that the great majority of students love it when they get there (whether Oxford or Cambridge - I have taught at both) and that most rapidly lose self-consciousness about their background. Of course there are stresses and strains created by the fact that most of the intake are used to being the cleverest or one of the cleverest in their class and suddenly they are (mostly) not - but those issues arise for students regardless of background, and may in fact be more acute and upsetting for students who come from a more 'hothouse' environment. From the tutor's perspective, the slightly 'rawer' (less polished, less carefully drilled) feel of students fresh from less academic schools can actually be more enjoyable and rewarding to teach - they are generally less paralysingly self-conscious about saying the 'wrong thing' and more genuinely open to new ideas and ways of thinking. It is definitely not a disadvantage, and there is some evidence that state school entrants may actually do better at finals than their independent school counterparts. As others have said, subjects which no-one or almost no-one takes at school also even out differences in school-teaching more quickly.

One thing I would say - don't let her school teachers convince her (or you) that all the 'extra-curricula' stuff is very important. Of course it's nice if people have lots of additional skills/have done lots of volunteer work/are head girl/can act or whatever - and generally speaking academically high-achieving teenagers do tend to have lots of this stuff, and make much of it on the UCAS form - but admissions tutors really do not care about this stuff half as much as most schools would have you believe. Schools tend to stress this "good citizen" element but admissions tutors are really interested in intelligence and teachability, not virtue! Much more important that she practises thinking - pursuing arguments, drawing conclusions from things she reads, not being put off by having to modify elements as she goes on, thinking logically and so on.

Just thought I'd mention this as I do lots of open days/outreach events etc and it always amazes me how much nonsense even very good, well-informed schools spout about the importance of the non-academic stuff.

Not sure whether this adds anything but I went from a comprehensive school to study (not law) at Trinity Hall, Cambridge, which is very well thought of for law. It was a really fantastic, friendly, small college, absolutely no snobbery/fitting in issues at all. I'm sure they could give you a contact to talk about your concerns. Not Oxford, obviously and that much further from home, but worth a look perhaps?

still reading with interest on behalf of DS1 who is the same age as OP's daughter and also wants to read law.
Lilymaid, that was really useful information regarding the summer schools but reading the info it appears that it is only for state school pupils. Sadly DS is one of the 'poor' private school children on a scholarship and with no country pad or pony Wonder if there are other options available for him?

DS has already done work experience at a firm of Solicitors, done the sitting at the back of a magistrates court etc and we are now trying to get him w/e in a barristers chambers.
He wants to do law with French so the suggestion of overseas w/e is an interesting one to look into.

Keep the suggestions coming in.

mamhaf, wonder if your DD and my DS will end up studying law together

Mumofsatan, every college holds open days after AS exams. e.g.:
"We hold an Open Day during the school summer term to which you would be very welcome to come... You will have an opportunity to see the College, to talk to some of the present students about undergraduate life, and to discuss with the Tutors the entrance procedures, courses, and examinations...The College also holds an Information day in September."
Look though the college websites and make a note of the dates of the 2010 Open Days (when they are posted) and apply.

From DH (who knows about these things!) Read loads and loads of book on all sorts of different subjects. Keep up with the papers but then read around the interesting bits through books and research. Do this constantly from now on!

There is a scheme run by the Social Mobility Foundation to provide bright Y12 pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds with internships in professions. It has openings in some top firms/chambers, so is well worth considering if your DC meets the criteria.

Lilymaid - she won't meet the criteria for the social mobility foundation as she's not in receipt of EMA - that does sound like an excellent scheme for students who do qualify though, as they're less likely to have parents who can help them quite as much.

Dd and I were chatting today about what a difference it does make to have a parent who has a degree - I was the only person in my family to go to university, and there's so much more that I can help dd with than my parents could.

But of course I don't have experience of the areas she's exploring now, which is why your collective experience is such a wonderful asset.

IME, and bearing in mind they will have loads of applicants with good enough results, they like candidates who show original thought and passion and can answer questions as if they are actually thinking about them, not just because they've learned the correct answer IYSWIM. Philosophical questions like "what do right and wrong actually mean?" might come up. If she has any legal heroes, favourite topics she's interested in, areas she thinks she wants to work in etc she should be prepared to discuss those - things that make her interesting and unique. And agree with radio 4 / current affairs and so on.

But also agree that she doesn't have to study law - for example if she actually really does love English and wants to continue with it, she could apply for that and still convert to law later.

Mumofsatan - if she does end up studying law, I'll certainly tell her to look out for a satan - I'm guessing the horns will be the giveaway

mamhaf, actually it is DD2 that is Satan at the moment although DD1 is doing her best to win the title. DS1 is no trouble at all

I went to Cambridge having studied at a state comprehensive 11-16 school and then a large state FE college.

I found that at my college, background seemed irrelevant..I don't think that I would be able to tell you now who had gone to private school and who had gone to state schools. The biggest divide was between the sophisticated Londoners and everyone else!

So, I would encourage state school pupils to apply; my perception is that state school pupils put themselves off. Cambridge (and Oxford?)just want the best thinkers regardless of background.

Over half of Cambridge students went to state schools...I think at Oxford it is slightly less.