What should dd (yr 12) be doing now to help her chances of law at Oxford?

[mamhaf]

She's studying English, Spanish and History and the Welsh Baccalaureate in lower sixth and thinks she'd like to apply to Oxford to read law.

She knows it's going to be phenomenally competitive and I'm not sure her state school will give her the kind of support she'll need.

Any tips please?

She has 13 GCSEs A to C grades (the As were in her A'level subjects, and has a B at maths)

She's trying to find a law firm which will give her work experience - I would think that's a minimum she'll need though.

What about preparation for university interviews?

tia

very interesting thread as my DS is also in year 12 and wants to become a lawyer although he is currently favouring Cambridge.
we've just started the serious conversations as to whether he should read law or do a different subject. At the moment he feels he wants to become a barrister as opposed to a solicitor so interesting comments regarding those wanting to become barristers reading law.

Tuboflard, very interested in the comment about colleges being keen on the girl who did arabic as DS did arabic GCSE as well as French and we are hoping this will make him stand out a little

A further word of advice on becoming a barrister - it's worth identifying which Inn you want to eventually become a member of and start forming a relationship with them whilst at uni by doing tours etc.

If you don't read law you can become a student member of an Inn upon graduation before commencing studies in law and start dining there which will give you a massive leg-up on the networking side of things. But that's a few years away!

At Cambridge YEARS ago we had a group called Target Schools, aimed at encouraging applications from schools where they didn't normally send students to Cambridge. I agree it's worth checking out the "feel" of different colleges if you can. I went up from a comprehensive and some colleges were just a bit posh, really. I think Target Schools might be able to help you with that sort of thing.

I read Economics and I'm now a solicitor. I would say that if you know you want to be a lawyer, you should study law actually. I've always felt a bit exposed to certain areas of law that the conversion course didn't cover. My specialism now is commercial property - clearly defined area of law where you can just learn it in depth on the job. Another reason for reading law is wanting to work abroad afterward - some jurisdictions require a law degree before you can become dual qualified there. New York State Bar springs to mind.

I didn't do law, but did go to Cambridge and then Oxford for postgraduate, and am now an academic. I have interviewed many students. Your DD needs to be able to think on her feet and express her reasoning clearly, without getting flustered or defensive. Being able to do this at a sophisticated level is something that state school pupils get much less practice at than private school pupils, which disadvantages state school candidates - despite all Oxford and Cambridge's efforts at being more inclusive

An enthusiasm for law as an academic discipline, as well as as a route to a career, is essential. I would recommend listening to programmes like law in action and reading articles about law in newspapers or online, and then really thinking about and researching the issues raised. One idea would be for you both to listen or read together and then discuss the more challenging points. When filling in the UCAS form, she should devote plenty of space to discussing her interest in law, including her specific interests (for example maybe the issues surrounding the bill of rights), the origin of these interests, and how she has pursued them. This is as important as extra-curricular activities. If she can produce a coherent account of her developing interest in law, she will stand out from the other candidates - who in my experience tend to write mainly about Duke of Edinburgh etc (not that extra-curricular activities are unimportant!)

Don't worry about the GCSEs. It sounds like she has a good crop. Most judging is done on the interview and form.

Best of luck

Hello - also read Times Law Section - every Thursday. Back issues of David Pannick's column may also help. The odd scan of the Solicitors Journal or Law Society Gazette website may also be useful to highlight topical issues.

I loved doing a law degree and personally have found it an excellent grounding. Studying law from first principles is very satisfying.

So far as doing a Law Degree is concerned, one of the magic circle firms is restricting recruitment to the holders of law degrees only.

If your dd is thinking of going to the bar, now in my experince, she needs to aim for a first and get as much experience as possible mooting and debating. The stellar Chambers which can guarantee a steady stream of work can and do insist on firsts these days. good luck

I read law at Cambridge. At the time I wanted to be a barrister. I read a law book beforehand - Tony Weir on Tort. It was entertainingly written and introduced me to the kind of critical thinking/thought processes you need for law, and for the kind of question I knew I would be asked (a kind of disaster scenario - who is liable? why? sort of thing). Not a prerequisite but even something like a nutshell or "essential" (assuming these crammers have not been superceded by an internet-based crib sheet!) helps to introduce you to that kind of reasoning. Assuming she has to tackle a similar problem.
When I was 17, I did work experience at a solicitor's firm (just high street gubbins, making tea, waste of time really but went on the UCAS) and barrister's chambers. Also I did a week of marshalling - sitting with a judge in the local crown court, it was really interesting - you get to see the evidence, what the judge sees/jury doesn't etc. I wasn't interested in crime but loved the experience.
I also did a lot of debating (in preparation for mooting). I got a first in the end but at the very last minute defected to the City as I decided the bar was just too solitary a life for me.
There is plenty of time for schmoozing in the Inns and all that - and many natural opportunities to get involved once she is at uni - in my view, beforehand, she should concentrate on developing her interest in the law, doing local work experience, getting top grades, looking round colleges (they are very different in size and atmosphere) and doing usual sixth-form cv-boosting activities I would say.

Important "don'ts" for interview

• DON'T talk about law as though it is all criminal law
• DON'T say "oooh, I could never defend someone I thought was guilty"

I read history at Oxford, then did a law coverstion (Graduate Diploma in Law) and am currently studying the Legal Practice Course which is the vocational element for solicitors-to-be. I join a Magic Circle City law firm next September.

On my intake, at least half of us did non-law undergraduate degrees. Lots did history, English, languages, economics etc. Furthermore, the funding to undertake the GDL law conversion is provided by firms if your DD gets a training contract with them (if she chooses to go down the solicitor route). If she wants to be a barrister, then there's limited funding opportunities from the Inns of Court for the GDL and the BVC (Bar Vocational Course - mandatory for barristers-to-be).

Does your DD have a preference for being a solicitor of barrister? Does she have any idea about the kind of law she's interested in? In terms of Oxbridge entry, how many A* grades did she get overall?

It would be a good idea to try and line up some work experience for your DD. I did a mini-pupillage when I was seventeen at a Criminal Chambers in Inner Temple - it put me off the barrister route and especially made me loathe criminal law!

Some good websites for your DD to have a look at are:

The Lawyer

Legal Week

as well as The Law section in The Times.

I read history at Oxford, then did a law coverstion (Graduate Diploma in Law) and am currently studying the Legal Practice Course which is the vocational element for solicitors-to-be. I join a Magic Circle City law firm next September.

On my intake, at least half of us did non-law undergraduate degrees. Lots did history, English, languages, economics etc. Furthermore, the funding to undertake the GDL law conversion is provided by firms if your DD gets a training contract with them (if she chooses to go down the solicitor route). If she wants to be a barrister, then there's limited funding opportunities from the Inns of Court for the GDL and the BVC (Bar Vocational Course - mandatory for barristers-to-be).

Does your DD have a preference for being a solicitor of barrister? Does she have any idea about the kind of law she's interested in? In terms of Oxbridge entry, how many A* grades did she get overall?

It would be a good idea to try and line up some work experience for your DD. I did a mini-pupillage when I was seventeen at a Criminal Chambers in Inner Temple - it put me off the barrister route and especially made me loathe criminal law!

Some good websites for your DD to have a look at are:

The Lawyer

Legal Week

as well as The Law section in The Times.

Have a look at the student room for discussion about courses/course requirements/universities. It is pretty difficult to get work experience in law firms at present owing to the recession, so good luck.
Typical university interview questions would be on censorship (e.g. to what extent should racially hateful literature be censored, if at all)or human rights versus responsibilities.
As others have said, you don't need to read law at university to become a barrister or a solicitor but it does mean that you have to finance 5 years of education (and the course fees for the GDL and LPC/BVC are generally considerably higher than undergraduate fees).

LPC/BVC is mandatory anyway, so it's only an extra year for the GDL that you need to finance.

Many thanks for all the replies here, it's a huge help.

She has three A*s (in the subjects she's doing for A'level), four As, 3 Bs and 3 Cs (in her triple sciences, clearly science not her strength).

Work experience is proving difficult to come by - so far she's tried herself, but I think I'll start contacting people I know or know of on her behalf to help her out.

She's signing up for the school debating society - this is the area I think she needs to work on most of all so that's she's prepared for some challenging interviews.

And she's ordered one of the books advised in the UCL prospectus as an introduction to the subject. I'll look up the Tony Weir one too.

We have a relative who's just begun a law degree herself and has offered for dd to read her notes and books too.

It seems to me that dd's big question is whether to pursue a law degree (quite likely law and Spanish), or something like languages or history and then the conversion course to become a solicitor. If she's set on being a barrister then it sounds like the law degree is the way to go.

Many thanks again - I'll make sure she reads all of this.

Bear in mind that if she doesn't do a law degree, you will need a further £20,000 in college fees for the GDL and LPC/BVC. There is no state funding for this. And maintenance will be on top. Yes, some law firms will sponsor, but large numbers of us are self-funding.

( I have recently paid my seventh thousand pounds over to the College of Law)

I did law at Oxford. I would have thought that if you can't fix up work experience at a firm/chambers then just spending a day or two sitting in the public galleries at the Crown/Mags Court would be good to show some willing.

I reckon that being able to show a genuine interest in the law and some topical legal issues, and being able to have a sensible discussion with the tutor at interview are the most important; teaching at Oxford is mainly tutorial based, and these were IME more important than attending most of the lectures!

the oxford degree focussed on depth rather than breadth, so only allows for a handful of optional subjects.

i went through something similar over a decade ago - i would say that even back then, for law, they were only really interested in straight As in everything plus a few scholarships along the way. nowadays, it must be a lot harder than that what with all the dumbing down and improved outreach to state schools boosting application numbers - i'm not saying i agree with this, just trying to be honest.
as for obtaining a pupillage at the Bar, the competition would be at least four times that. best thing to do is aim to get in to do a (pref obscure) language degree, classics or history (if rel). the law firms would still be interested in her for where she studied rather than what she studied

Well, other than choosing the wrong University, it sounds like she is doing the right things.

I think now that Oxford and Cambridge set entrance papers for law applicants, so it might be worth asking the Universities for some practice papers.

Don't worry about the state school thing...my sisters and I were all at state schools and found our Cambridge interviews fine; they probably don't want highly tutored applicants.

has she looked at the student room loads of info there for 6th formers

My DH is a solicitor and studied at Cambridge. He did do a law degree and I don't think he regrets it at all. As others have said, it meant he only had to do one year post-grad before starting work as a trainee. He was lucky enough to be sponsored for that by his firm but obviously there were people there at the same time as him who were having to finance one or two years themselves which was a struggle for them.

DH got 10 As at GCSE and then 4 As for A level - this was before the days of A*s, and I think he felt his academic record was important. He also did some debating at school, got some work experience locally during 6th form and did all the current affairs, law in action stuff recommended by others.

He would I'm sure echo the advice about researching colleges well. He did a lot of research and identified the exact college he wanted to go to as one with a particularly good reputation for law. Magic circle firms and good barristers chambers often target specific colleges for marketing events so being at the 'right' college made getting a job as a trainee easier I think.

Can I just point out that doing a law degree isn't the path of no return to a life in the law - law graduates from Oxford and Cambridge have many other options apart from being a solicitor or barrister so she is by no means cutting off other options by doing this. I did a law degree and I'd do it again - its fine to say its "only" one more year to do the CPE but it can be one helluva expensive year.

Just one thing...I would imagine that Oxford would expect all As/A*s at GCSE.

It could be your daughter's GCSE results aren't quite good enough.

However, I think that it is always worth applying; let Oxford admissions make the decision.

Tell your DD to ignore all these Cassandras about grades if she wants to apply! A lot of the issue with Oxbridge is that state school students just don't apply. I think I am right in saying that the places offered are pretty much the same ratio as the applications. Colleges are used to distinguishing between schools where the kids are spoon fed, and those where they have to work for their grades. If she doesn't apply and gets good A levels she'll spend the rest of her life wondering if she could have got in. Don't stunt her ambition now.

I interviewed at Oxford (Lincoln) for Jurisprudence back in the late '90s and didn't get in.

Apparently I did well at the entrance paper (they have their own) but not so well at the interview and so did not get an offer on that basis. I was put off by the fact that there was only 1 interviewer when I was expecting 2.

I also didn't understand where the questions were coming from in that I couldn't see how they related to law, there was a whole line of enquiry about what I would do if driving a train along a track to a junction following which an old person and a young sick person were tied. With hindsight, I think an appropriate response would have been to ask the interviewer why they were asking the question and how this related to law and try to explore this with them ... anyway, it required a philosophical response. I think the test was to see if I understood / could cope with a Jurisprudence course rather than a pure law course.

Anyway, I went to UCL and studied law there instead and lived happily ever after (so far!) so no harm done.

I would say, if she is dead set on law, she could up her chances by applying to less popular colleges but even more by applying for a different subject and then applying to transfer after a term.

Well, she has nothing to lose by applying to Oxford - the main draw is that they have the Spanish and law course which, at the moment, is what she wants to do. I think UCL also has a course she's interested in, but that might be law rather than law and Spanish.

And of course that wouldn't mean she'd have to become a lawyer - but she does need to decide if a law course would hold her interest for four years (one year would be spent in Spain), or if she'd be better studying languages or something else.

My main concern is that she prepares as much as she can now by honing her interview and debating skills as well as working hard towards A*s at A'level - she is very conscientious, bless her, so (I hope) on track.

Once again, thank you all very much for your generous advice - she read through everything last night and is under no illusions about the effort she'll need to put in.

I have some experience in this area.

First, congratulations to your daughter on her GCSE results and good luck in working out what she wants to do. She has nearly a year to decide on this. As others have said, it is not necessary to do a law degree to become a lawyer and vice versa. She should make sure that she wants to do the degree itself, not least because enjoying a degree makes it far easier to succeed at it. There are some good suggestions on this thread ? go to open days, spend time in courts, read some starting law books or books specifically on studying law e.g. ?letters to a law student?. She should also make sure that she?s interested in the Oxford course which is quite philosophical. She can apply for the, very competitive, 4 yr Law and Spanish Law course there without prejudicing her chances for the 3 yr straight law degree (they automatically consider you for 3 yr if you apply for 4 yr unless you say you?re not interested).

On the application and improving her chances. I assume that she has read the faculty website and the links from there. It includes a video of a mock interview and this page has more information including details on open days (note some start applications in January). The best information comes directly from the University as there are often myths and out of date experiences that can put people off. Specifically I wouldn?t worry about trying to impress tutors on open days. Firstly, the law admissions process deliberately re-jigs people to different colleges to ensure similar levels of competition across colleges and to try to get all the best people in. Also, there is a strong emphasis on trying to be as objectively fair as possible so tutors avoid attempts to build relationships beforehand (although will be available at open days for questions). Finally attempts to impress tutors don?t often work (e.g. claiming to be interested in an area that just happens to be their area of interest tends to backfire when the tutor says ?really, reform of land charges is a very specific area, what interests you in it?? etc).

On the admissions process, the decision on whether to interview her will largely be based on achieved and predicted exam performance and on the LNAT. She should obviously make sure that as a top priority she is working as hard as possible at her A-levels as she will need to make sure that her tutors confidently predict her 3 As (the standard offer) to be considered seriously. The LNAT is an exam required by Oxford and several other good universities, more information and practice questions here. The GCSEs will be looked at in the context of her school so don?t be put off by the idea that she has to have straight A*. Many people will have but equally many people get in without those results.

The admissions criteria are on their website here and are application, reasoning ability and communication. Application refers to motivation for the degree not for a career in law so the UCAS personal statement should explain why she is interested in studying the law not (only) in being a lawyer. I wouldn?t worry about not being able to do work experience ? at this stage that is largely a function of who your parents know. Going and sitting at the back of a court is just as good provided that, whatever she does, she can talk about it with intelligence and interest. Given the subjects that she is studying, I?m guessing her communication and understanding of language are very good. Her GCSE?s suggest that Maths and Science are weaker for her. That is not a problem in itself but sometimes it suggests that the person is not so good at logical and concise reasoning. If that is the case the critical thinking course may be good if she can do it at school or elsewhere, practicing tests like the LNAT might also be useful.

You asked what she can do now and this is a huge post already so I won?t say much about interviews but practicing debating (including the listening to the other side bit!) and asking teachers or family friends to have challenging conversations about current events (where they will challenge her views too) would be good and stand her in good stead for law whether she interviews at Oxford or not.

Sorry for the huge post but hope it is helpful. Good luck to her.

I thought of you today when I was talking to someone (not Oxbridge) who is receiving applications from students wanting to read law with a language at the moment. He was talking about a particularly interesting statement from a candidate wanting to read law with French who did work experience in France and Brussels....Could you daughter arrange to do something vaguely legal related in Spain for a bit? Time in Spain will look good anyway (as long as it's not all sun and sangria) but time in Spain with a legal focus could be verrrry interesting.

Is she still struggling to find work experience? Whereabouts are you, in terms of nearest city? Am assuming Wales... I could ask Daddy if he might know someone, if that help?