Why do some teachers have to be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO defensive?

[hobbgoblin]

My son is always in the naughty books. He is lovely, and always commended for adorable polite behaviour with friends on play dates and so on - all my mummy friends love having him over. However, he is naughty in an attention seeking way or when he feels lacking in confidence.

I liaise with the school regularly and we all know it stems from self esteem issues.

This term he has been excellent to date and was very good for me in the 6 week hols.

All good.

However, last week he had to be reprimanded for catching the Head's foot with his chair as he was being silly. Today he had to stay after school to clear up yogurt from the carpet. Apparently he made a mess with it but it was actually another boy who was to blame really and my DS caught the tail end of some shennanigans. The other boy went home, my DS had to clear up.

So, I decided to ask his teacher what had brought about the sudden downturn in behaviour as was disappointed but also to find out why it was only my DS doing the cleaning punishemnt.

Teacher explained that other boy escaped before she could get him to clean up and that she would be telling him off in the morning. I said fine but surely that this means my DS has been the one getting the punishemnt whilst watching the other child 'get off' with the bad behaviour. I said we all know that some of the behvaiour is due to low expectation of self and also DS's view of what others think of him, i.e. 'always the naughty child'. I said they perhaps ought to have been punished together instead of making DS clean up just because he went and confessed to the teacher whilst the other scarpered(she told me he confessed and soon after realised that it was not actually DS's fault at all).

Anyway despite acknowledging all this about DS being branded naughty and avoiding any dodgy ground re. self esteem and expectation she concludes with "it was my decision and it is up to me how I deal with it and I'm not leaving yogurt on the carpet for the caretaker".

I wanted to ask why she didn't flippin' clean it up then rather than making DS do it because that was easier. I didn't, but it makes me so mad that I go in and raise reasonable questions about what happened in a reasonable manner to be met with the response I was.

What do you lot think?

Scaryteacher, don't all the children require careful handling? Are you trying to say that all teachers can do their job properly? Are you telling a parent that what happens to her child in a classroom is none of the parent's business?

The situation you describe with the Head and the Tutor not communicating to each other much pertinent information about the children you were trying to educate sounds really barmy to me, with third parties who do not have direct experience of children's behaviour or progress communicating with parents, and children seen as empty vessels for pouring information into, instead of individuals with their short lifetimes' experiences and the burdens many of them may have been carrying around with them all day ignored. How effective could teaching be in these circumstances.

Plus, the child was not caught doing something wrong. He was punished for something that someone else did.

'Careful handling' is what I would term as kid glove treatment. So, no, not all the children require it, especially at secondary level.

If a teacher can't do their job properly then they should not be in the classroom. I don't know of any teacher who was not professionally competent in the schools I've taught in.

You need to think what you want from teachers at all levels. We are not social workers, nor are we trained to be; nor do we want to be. I'm not an Ed Psych either. I taught 600+ students a week; if all I did was deal with the overspill from their home lives, then no teaching would be done at all, and I would be in trouble for not fulfilling my primary remit, which is to teach certain subjects. Yes, make the atmosphere in the classroom pleasant; put a bit of fun into the mix, be available at break, lunchtimes and after school if the students have a problem and wish to talk to you; but if you see a child for an hour a week, there is a limited amount you can achieve. All you can really do is notice that a child is off balance and pass that concern on to the pastoral care team / the tutor/ the HoYear to deal with.

Some of what has happened to some of the students is rightly confidential, and we don't have a need to know as it might affect how we deal with them; and in some cases what the students need is not to be singled out, but treated as one of the others, so there is degree of normalcy for them at school. In some cases school is a place where they can forget home and concentrate on something else.

What happens to the child is the parent's business, but there are ways of dealing with people, and if HG had come into my classroom and questioned my judgement, she would have been invited to leave and make an appointment for another time with myself and the HoY/HoD to discuss her concerns.

I think what has been slightly misleading is that you stated in your first post that your ds had been "mucking about"- posters therefore drew the conclusion that he had been doing something he shouldn't have on this particular occasion (even if it wasn't spilling the youghurt) and that the teacher was therefore in her rights to punish him (and we don't know that she won't punish the other boy when she gets hold of him).

In your first post, you seem to suggest that he was mucking about, in later posts you seem to be saying he wasn't.

It will be easier if you explain more clearly what happened. Was your ds misbehaving in any way at the time? Or was he just innocently passing and the teacher picked on him by mistake?

Looking back on the original post, it now occurs to me that having a child clean yogurt off a carpet would involve him having to get down on his knees and scrub, without knowing how to do this properly, and possibly without the right tools for the job, while supervised by the teacher, who presumably stood there watching him. If this is how it happened, than it was also a humiliating punishment for the child, not merely unjust. Given that his home life has featured humiliation and abuse of his mother by her former partner, the punishment was even more unsuitable, imo.

But he did do something. In your OP you say he made a mess of it.

Mathanxiety, the teacher may not know that his home life featured that, as it breaks the confidentiality of the parents as well. We are not given the ins and outs of a student's home life by the school, as we do not need, or have the right, to know these details.

When students have spilt substances in my classroom, they are given a wet cloth, or kitchen towel, and they clean it up, be it water or yogurt, accident or not. I am not their mum, and if they have spilt something they need to learn how to mop up after themselves. It's not a punishment, it's what my lad has to do at home when he knocks something over, and I expect the students (secondary) to do the same.

Has HobGlobin explained even once (just tell me the time/date stamp) in this thread,who did what, who observed what, and what exactly was her son's definite mucking about naughty behaviour that he was being judged for? Because without that full explanation, I can't make heads or tails of any of it.

Very confusing. I think if the ds was involved in any way with the yoghurt spillage incident it is perfectly reasonable to expect him to be involved in clearing it up.

The assumption that other people will clear up the mess created by mess is something that really riles me as a teacher and parent and even when I just see people littering. And I do think the OP's attitude to the teacher cleaning up mess created by kids whoever they were is unpleasant.

Sadly, people with a reputation for bad behaviour ARE likely to be blamed for things even when they haven't done them. It's a bit of a boy who cried wolf situation where if a child has already been involved in several recent incidents and is not always trustworthy then it is going to be very hard to trust him in the one incident where he actually had no involvement. Clearly the ds needs to shake off his reputation for bad behaviour and build a more positive relationship with the teacher. Not easy I know.

Mess created by kids that should say.

Let it go. It's not worth it. Teachers have got a hard enough job to do without you splitting hairs and calling your, in your own words, naughty little boy, a victim.

Maybe he needs to learn that taking the rap for things he hasn't done is usually balanced by all the times he's got away with things that he has done.

And as for "catching the Head's foot with his chair?"

If you've worked hard at supporting the school in addressing his issues, then don't ruin it all by being pedantic on this one.

'Catching the Head's foot with his chair' - perhaps he was tilting his chair, and she was behind him when he put the legs down again, or he scooted his chair backwards and the leg caught her foot, or he knocked his chair over and the leg caught her foot - there are several explanations that don't assume that he was swinging the chair around (I assume that's why the at this bit). He could have been doing something silly with the chair (ie tilting, scooting it around etc) that he shouldn't have been doing but that don't imply deliberate malice.

Clop - if I have read the thread properly, some yoghurt was spilled by another child, the OP's ds had nothing to do with the spillage, happened to be mucking round nearby, but didn't make the yoghurt mess worse, but was accused of the yoghurt mess and made to clear it up. Eyewitness evidence by other children showed clearly that the OP's ds wasn't involved in the yoghurt mess and so the OP believes, rightly, that he shouldn't have been made to clear it up.

The teacher has, iirc, accepted that the OP's ds had nothing to do with the yoghurt mess but hasn't acknowledged that she was wrong to punish him for another child's misdeeds.

I don't think that this is expecting the child to be handled 'with kid gloves' as Scaryteacher says - it is expecting the child to be treated fairly.

Clearly mistakes will happen - the teacher honestly believed at first that the OP's ds was involved in the yoghurt incident, and punished him (though she might have been better to wait and punish both children together, as the other boy had scarpered). But, having found out that she was mistaken, she should have apologised to the OP's ds and acknowledged her mistake - which is surely what she should have done for any child whom she'd punished for something they hadn't done.

Doesn't sound like the teacher was being defensive at all. She was giving reasons for her decision. And I think she did the right thing.

Similar this week ,when a teacher saw dd in tears and 2 older boys (one of whom was ds), one apparently hitting her face. ds is adamant that his friend was doing no more than brushing away her tears, and knowing the child I have no reason to disbelieve him or dd. Tried to suggest to the teacher concerned later that perhaps the situation wasn't quite as she'd thought but she was adamant. Obviously I wasnlt there so canlt argue. Fortunately there seem to have been no negative repercussions.

tbh in your situation I'd wonder why both children involved hadn't had to do the same but you can't always make allowances made for persistent poor behaviour.

BUt if he was mucking around in some other way (i.e. doing something he shouldn't), then why was it so wrong of the teacher to punish him by making him clear a mess off the floor- even if he hadn't made the mess? Is it worse than making him tidy the book cupboard or something?

Teachers can be defensive as they are always being called to account - everyone else knows how to do their job better - and no matter how hard they work, some people make it feel thankless.

My take on this: the teacher made a minor error & personally I think let it go.

Ds seeing my reaction as a parent is the more significant and hopefully the one that would help give ds perspective.

e.g. DS' friend blamed him for something last week that he did not do and ds got into minor trouble - ds was a bit indignant - we discussed it, it's forgotten - I won't being seeing ds' teacher to say her reprimand was unfair.

I agree, Heated. And parents usually only seem to see the point of view of their child. The teacher is looking at the wider perspective of the whole class/school.
Also, if the OP's son sees her taking the school to task on his account, he won't be appreciating the finer points of why she's cross about it. He'll just perceive it as "I was in trouble, and good old Mum told the teacher off about it."

The impression that I get is that the teacher made it clear that tidying the yoghurt up was a punishment for making a mess with it in the first place - which the OP's son hadn't done. Making him clear up the other boy's mess will seem very unjust to him, and therefore would be worse than making him tidy the book cupboard, imo.

And whilst I do understand that the teachers are the trained professionals, who know their job far better than I do, as a parent, I know my child far better than they do - and therefore some things, behaviour in particular, should be a collaboration between the teacher and the parents. If the parent doesn't feel that her child is being treated fairly, it will be harder for her to back up the teacher.

I understood, from the op, that the boy had joined in making a mess with the yoghurt after someone else had spilled it. Fair enough to tidy it if the other boy had scarpered

Having children clear up spills is all right and mighty fine until someone falls and hurts themselves on a 'cleaned up' floor. Why do schools have janitors if not to clean? Yes, mop it up, but not to spare the caretaker's bad back later.

I agree with Stayingsunnygirl about the need for a collaborative approach between teacher and parent when it comes to behaviour: both need to communicate well and frequently if there are problems. Scaryteacher, the 'breach of privacy' factor is completely crazy and even counter-productive. Often, the home life of a child may make it impossible for that child to concentrate in school, or put in a good effort; they may be distracted thinking about granny's death or dad being sent off to prison or the house being foreclosed. They don't just switch those things off and skip off to school and the welcome distraction it offers. Behaviour doesn't just happen in a vacuum -- there is usually a context, and in the case of a pattern of behaviour, where a child is 'in the naughty book' more often than not, you can nearly always bet there is something bigger going on in the background.

The parents know the whole child from birth. Teachers should recognise that they are teaching a whole child. I think a teacher does need the details, just as a doctor needs the patient's prior medical history or a pharmacist needs to know what other medications a customer may be taking. A teacher's job can often be made a lot easier if the child's home circumstances are made known to him or her. There are specific approaches to discipline and punishment that might be far more constructive than others, depending on the circumstances, and there are some approaches that will actually make the teacher's job more difficult, and also make the job of subsequent teachers more difficult.

MA - I would love to have the background of some of my students, but I was NOT allowed to have it. Crazy or not, that is the rule we have to work with.

How far do you want the information disseminated? In a large comprehensive where a child may come into contact with several teachers, should we all know about the appalling things that have happened to some students and their parents, or just the HoY and Child Protection teacher, or do we add the form tutor into that? Some of the things may be sub judice - is it illegal to tell people? Can everyone who knows be trusted to keep quiet and not tell family and friends. What if a pupil is earwigging on two teachers discussing it? Then the whole school ends up knowing. It's a can of worms.

What would be the impact on the child if everyone knows that they have been beaten or sexually abused. School may be the one place they can merge in with the rest. If you tell everyone then that anonymity has gone.

Equally, and I don't know where you live, in a comp that serves a rural community where several of the families are interlinked, if a whisper gets out that something is amiss in the life of the child or the parent then it rapidly spreads throughout that community.

It seems to me that restricting the information can be a good thing. The pharmacist may need to know what pills I take, s/he doesn't need to know what my home life is like. School is only one part of a child's life and it may be an escape from their home life, and they don't want the two to mix. Also, some parents don't bother about their child from birth, so what are they going to tell us?

It's all very well to say that teachers should have the information; but have you allowed for the unintended consequences of that policy? You have to be able to think of everything that could go wrong; the knock on effects of that for students, their parents, and the staff; and be satisfied that the gains outweighed the negatives. I am not sure they do.

there was yoghurt on a carpet, math. No need for health and safety slippage outrage.

Mind you, 'why do schools have janitors?' - good question.

Now that's exactly the srgument that some of my students give me when I tell them to pick up their litter MA. "The cleaner can do it - it's what they're paid for". I always suspected it came from the parents . And I'm afraid I do give them very short shrift...

oh yes, fallen. I say it is the pupils' job to pick up every piece of litter that can be picked up, not the cleaner's. I say it nearly every day, in fact. I dislike that sloppy 'let the cleaner do it; attitude.

In Japan, I think the pupils clean their own schools. Think of the things children wouldn't do, if THEY had to do the cleaning..... Certainly not poo in the urinal, as one of our little lovelies did the other day!!

cleaners are there to pick up normal day to day debris and accidents.

surely there is a lesson for your son about being the only one expected to clean the mess? it ain't fair that the cleaner clean it up just like it ain't fair he was the only one cleaning it up. may give a harsh lesson in empathy.