Why do some teachers have to be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO defensive?

[hobbgoblin]

My son is always in the naughty books. He is lovely, and always commended for adorable polite behaviour with friends on play dates and so on - all my mummy friends love having him over. However, he is naughty in an attention seeking way or when he feels lacking in confidence.

I liaise with the school regularly and we all know it stems from self esteem issues.

This term he has been excellent to date and was very good for me in the 6 week hols.

All good.

However, last week he had to be reprimanded for catching the Head's foot with his chair as he was being silly. Today he had to stay after school to clear up yogurt from the carpet. Apparently he made a mess with it but it was actually another boy who was to blame really and my DS caught the tail end of some shennanigans. The other boy went home, my DS had to clear up.

So, I decided to ask his teacher what had brought about the sudden downturn in behaviour as was disappointed but also to find out why it was only my DS doing the cleaning punishemnt.

Teacher explained that other boy escaped before she could get him to clean up and that she would be telling him off in the morning. I said fine but surely that this means my DS has been the one getting the punishemnt whilst watching the other child 'get off' with the bad behaviour. I said we all know that some of the behvaiour is due to low expectation of self and also DS's view of what others think of him, i.e. 'always the naughty child'. I said they perhaps ought to have been punished together instead of making DS clean up just because he went and confessed to the teacher whilst the other scarpered(she told me he confessed and soon after realised that it was not actually DS's fault at all).

Anyway despite acknowledging all this about DS being branded naughty and avoiding any dodgy ground re. self esteem and expectation she concludes with "it was my decision and it is up to me how I deal with it and I'm not leaving yogurt on the carpet for the caretaker".

I wanted to ask why she didn't flippin' clean it up then rather than making DS do it because that was easier. I didn't, but it makes me so mad that I go in and raise reasonable questions about what happened in a reasonable manner to be met with the response I was.

What do you lot think?

If he didn't do it and was just in the wrong place at the wrong time by being in the vicinity just after the yoghurt got spilt then I think the teacher shouldn't be making him clean it up.

Forget the self-esteem issues for a moment - it simply isn't fair. I know life isn't fair sometimes and that the teacher may now know your DS didn't do it, but punishing a child for something he didn't do isn't going to improve his behaviour. He is going to think he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't so he might as well not bother to behave. The teacher should apologise for getting it wrong.

I would expect that whether it was a child with issues or not.

But having said that, it seems a minor incident and I would just let it go unless this sort of thing keeps happening.

Having the ability to look on the bright side is apparently a sign of good self esteem and given that 'high parental self esteem is crucial to the ability to nurture high self esteem and personal effectiveness in children', I say let it go.

My post of 11.56 was my way of 'looking on the bright side'.

Next time accept that what is done is done and try your best to make the conclusion a positive one for all.

My children have sometimes been blamed and punished for things they haven't done. Actually, this has also happened to me as an adult. I don't think it matters that much if it only happens occasionally and is not part of a pattern of a child being seen as a problem child.

I have got involved once. This was because another child was injured (fingers shut in door), nobody saw my child do it, not even the other child. My child was adamant they were not involved (or even present) and was very upset because someone was hurt.

On other occasions, I have not got involved, and told my child they will have to put up with being blamed because any attempt to change the school's decision will be futile. A sensible eight year old can understand that life is unfair.

I would take a very different view if my child had a reputation or a behavioural issue that the school was trying to resolve (however mild). You cannot manage a behavioural change in school if the child is not being treated fairly. The child will just believe that there is no point in behaving if they are going to be blamed even when they are not the culprit.

Your child did not spill the yoghurt. Your child did misbehave, but should have received a punishment that was related to their behaviour, not to someone else's.

Teachers are just people though. Some are wonderful and some are mean spirited. All of them will sometimes have an off day.

it would have been a bit wishy-washy of the teacHer to go back on her decision to get the boys to clear up because one ran off. She had to follow it through and hopefully the boy who escaped will have had to face consequences of messing about and running off the following day. .

Well, I guess that's my issue with it. It is because - due to his own silly fault - he has become labelled and now his major improvements in behaviour are not resulting in a blank copy book and I feel that this needs to be addressed. I asked the teacher if she felt that it was a good move to punish the last one standing (my DS) rather than wait and punish both equally, or maybe even wait to establish facts before dishing out punishment, because as it turns out DS wasn't even at fault in any way.

The teacher did not see what happened - she admitted that and yet yet again assumed DS must have been to blame. This is so unfair and I have observed a boy older than him in the same school go down this route, always being blamed and never experiencing a discipline model where achievement was rewarded and serious punishment only doled out for irefutable bad misdemeanours. He had a terrible home life and is now in an establishment. My DS has had a troubled time at home, not in the same way but which is the fault of me and my relationships (I divorced from his father when he was 1 and then had a violent relationship) and I am busting a gut to do all I can to compensate for what he has been through and don't feel backed up by the school as a whole.

The headteacher is quite understanding now that other services have explained some background to them in professional psychological terms but this does not seem to have filtered down to the class teacher who has failed on every occasion to meet with us when progress meetings have been held.

DS rarely sees his father due to distance and lack of willing on his father's part until recently. He is a middle child and paternal GPs and his father all favour older DD. I feel very sad for my DS. He is gorgeous but he is ungainly and least cuddly of my DC and his way of gaining love is to be silly or truculent. These small things matter imo. when these are the circs. of his little life.

silly fault, unfair, self-esteem issues - your vocab is letting you down as its putting you into the my son is a victim frame which I personally find rather irritating

busting a gut to compensate highlights it - I think you need to stop compensating and expect more from him and his behaviour

and if its improving then talk to the teacher informally and challenge the teacher to find 1 thing to praise him on a day

He is a victim.

He is a victim.

I agree that small things matter - without any of the complicating circumstances my DS feels any injustice (getting told off for things he didn't do) and always has - I once had to wait 30 minutes at pick up time at nursery, because he was supposed to be saying sorry before he got off the time-out chair, and he wouldn't say sorry because he didn't do whatever it was. I have had to have the 'life isn't fair' conversation with him so many times.

Given that the head is understanding and the teacher is not, I think it would be reasonable to ask to meet with the head - not to discuss the ins and outs of carpet cleaning, but the general principle of how you can work together to make sure DS does get a chance to start with a clean sheet.

And there exactly is your problem - you think he's a victim

this is why you have a problem

and i'm trying very hard not to turn into a monty python sketch here (he's not a victim, he's a naughty little boy)

franklymydear, I think you think I am wishy washy and ignorant of his behaviour perhaps? I am very firm with him and support the school in disciplining him when appropriate. It disappoints me if he has to see the Head and I tell him so and talk about how he can improve in order to avoid such punishment but I don't get defensive of him or fed up with school for doing this.

Just because I think he is a victim doesn't mean I think he should be let off. I do think being a victim of domestic abuse and so on means he needs careful handling and that the 'life is unfair' discussion is not one he should have to have time and time again. God help me, he of all people knows life is unfair and the adults in his life now need to compensate as far as possible for the degree of unfairness he has experienced in 8 years by being especially careful and not lazy in their handling of him.

It is lazy not to establish facts first imo. and it is lazy not to listen to a parent without instantly being on the defense.

The teacher sounds like someone who is not exactly respected by the children, or in control in the classroom. How did one child manage to run off? Why did the teacher fail to meet with you on the formal evaluation meetings?

Sometimes a teacher who has lost control of a group will dish out unfair or disproportionate punishments to a scapegoat child in a misguided effort to regain control or fool him or herself into thinking he or she is in charge, or try to scare the other children into compliance and order. And that kind of teacher is also usually rather defensive about said punishments. OP is being proactive with the school and is doing, what I think anyway, is a great job of being an advocate for her DS, who clearly has some problems, judging from her later posts.

OK, life sometimes is unfair. But some children get more than their fair share of unfairness. I don't believe that schools or teachers should be excused for unprofessional behaviour just on the basis that children should have to get used to unfair treatment, which seems a very spurious item in any curriculum.

I'm just wondering how you know he didn't do it if you weren't there at the time? Children have a very selective memory when recounting things and often don't tell things exactly as they happened. Not lying, but they do get mixed up between what really happened and what they wished happened. Also when teeling stories to their parents, they often don't fully own up unless absolutely caught in the act. That's normal kiddie behaviour (and some adults too!)

True Shamster. I am going by what other children have said. Two other parents asked their children what happened and they've all said the same as my DS.

Neither I nor the teacher witnessed it but it would seem extremely unlikely that DS did anything.

I agree Hobgoblin - your DS has had more than his share of unfairness, by the sound of it, and his teacher should appreciate the fact that, whilst he certainly shouldn't get special treatment in terms of not facing the consquences of his actions, she should be prepared to take a little more time in establishing the real facts as part of a general concerted home/school effort to establish in your DS's mind that not all of life is unfair.

My DS on the other hand has generally had a good hand dealt to him and I have no issue with him learning that sometimes life is not as fair as he wants/expects it to be.

I agree with Mathanxiety and confess that at one time I was that teacher although at a later point in the year having taken over a failing class where the teacher was on long term sick leave. Burdened with an uphill struggle to pull it all together there were times when it all went a bit awry and I did exactly as MA suggests can happen.One child (who was a horror) was the regular scapegoat for the class and had been since they all started school together .This was a year 1 class.
Happily I eventually recognised what was happening and made a point if praising the good,ignoring ( most but not all) the bad and catching him doing the right thing. The change was remarkable and his parents came to ask what on earth had happened.It also helped the class understand that I was in charge and not simply doing the same as had happened before. Children have a very well developed sense of fair play even if they don't always carry it out themselves.
Can you ask the teacher if she could try this with your DS? He is still young enough for this to alter his whole outlook on school.

"Apparently he made a mess with it"

How? I understand that he didn't originally spill it, but how did he make a mess with it?

at the time apparently he had but after a while it was established he hadn't. By then he had cleaned it up and been kept back beyond home time to do so.

'the adults in his life now need to compensate as far as possible for the degree of unfairness he has experienced in 8 years by being especially careful and not lazy in their handling of him.

It is lazy not to establish facts first imo. and it is lazy not to listen to a parent without instantly being on the defense.'

I think you need to rephrase this to the adults in his family now need to compensate...

His teacher is not responsible for the degree of unfairness in the first 8 years of your child's life, and she has to balance his needs with those of the rest of the class to whom she also has a responsibility. It is not her job to compensate for his home life. How many other children does she teach in the class, and how many others require 'careful handling' as well?

If you had appeared in my classroom and questioned my judgement, I would not have been very happy either. Perhaps you need to examine how you come across before you label a teacher lazy. Were you strident and aggressive? Were you questioning her in front of your ds? If so, what other response did you expect?

As for the progress meetings, if these are held in lesson time and there is no cover provided, then how can she attend them? Have you checked if this is the case? Was she off sick? Was it her guaranteed PPA time? Had she been invited to attend? Had she perhaps sent notes that others had seen and not you? I was the form tutor of a very damaged little individual, and the Year Head went to the meetings about her, not me.

A school and the classroom is a teachers place of work. A parent may be able to arrange a meeting to discuss issues at other times, but to go into a classroom and then to question the teachers professional judgement is akin to telling her that she can't do her job properly. I wouldn't have been defensive, I would have been livid.

scaryteacher you and my DS's teacher would get along famously as you are as defensive as one another. I entrust my son's care with her each day, it is my right to question how that happens.

You ask questions of my approach and then make assumed responses so clearly do not wish to hear my answers. You have as much of a problem with the idea of being wrong or making errors of judgement as this teacher does it would seem.

I think this is one of those situtaions that just has to be put down to experience. I am a teacher too and establishng what happens is difficult sometimes. I am careful not to punish directly if I have not seen the behaviour first hand, but this can't always be the case. Bullying, for instance, usually happens out of sight, and does need to be dealt with. Teachers can be defensive as can anyone who feels that their professional judgement is being questioned. I think it's perfectly acceptable for a parent to ask about events and teachers do get it wrong sometimes, as do others. However, I have had parents in, one even telling me that they did not give permission to tell their little girl off as she didn't like it...I told her in no uncertain terms that I did not think this was the way to set clear boundaries.

Maybe you can just praise DS for helping to clear up the yoghurt, and help him to move away when he sees daft stuff going on. Life is unfair and lessons like this are worth learning early. Maybe she had a bad day. It sounds like you do support the school and you were asking about one event and that's fine too. But we are only human and sometimes silly things come out of our mounths. It is absolutely true though, that a teacher needs to have the freedom to deal with things as they arise in their own classroom. One adult with 30 kids can't deal with things the same way that a parent does. Hopefully, it will blow over soon. Tomorrows a new day.

but scaryteacher if she had questioned your judgement on punishing a child that you admitted was innocent and others could vouch for, would you still act like the teacher did and be defensive? Or would you say "sorry I got it wrong this time"?

perhaps it would help if the school used a communication book to inform you of how his day has gone (good or bad). That way you can have an accurate picture of how his behaviour is on a day to day basis.

BTW if one of my childs friends were a nightmare when they were over at mines, there would be no way in hell I would tell them.

I am not defensive at all Hobgoblin - I'm asking you to view it from another perspective. You as is right are focused on the needs of your particular child. The teacher has to focus on the needs of 30+. She is not responsible for the rough time your ds has had to date, so why do you expect her to over compensate for the mistakes the adults in his life made earlier?

I fail to see how I assumed your responses, and I note that you have particularly avoided answering those questions I raised, especially those about her attendance at progress meetings. I'd love to hear your answers, but you assume I don't wish to. Why?

As to the meetings, I rarely knew when such meetings were going on as a form tutor, as I had no need to know, and indeed, under data protection, form tutors in my school were not allowed access to their tutees files. Made tutoring a difficult job in some cases. We were told what the HoY thought we needed to know. Perhaps this is the case with your ds's teacher; the Head has the full picture - the teacher doesn't, and isn't being told by the Head to protect your confidentiality and that of your son.

If you don't want the teacher to have the care of your son, home ed him. There are policies and rules for discipline in schools. You will have had an opportunity to examine those when you enrolled your son there. If you don't like them, move him. However, he has another 10-12 years of education...are you going to talk to every single teacher he has in a secondary school and expect them to compensate for his earlier life? It will not always happen as you want it to, especially if they only see him for an hour a week.

Pick your battles - this one I would let go; he got caught doing something wrong and got punished. It happens.

Letsgo; when I've bollocked a student and I've been wrong, I always apologise to that student in front of the whole class and admit I was wrong.

I don't know that this teacher was defensive as I have only one side of the story from HG. She could have been irritated that at the end of the day she was being harassed by a parent who was questioning her professional judgement, based on the evidence of other children. HG wasn't in the classroom, how does she know? Students will support their friends willy nilly at times to get them out of trouble. I've seen it many times.