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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Following Ed Balls webchat, thread for parents of summer born babies

324 replies

GeraldineMumsnet · 11/09/2009 17:13

We said we'd start this thread, as so many of you expressed an opinion on the Ed Balls webchat thread about summer-born babies and starting school.

BTW, this is a recent thread in media requests on a linked topic.

Will nip over to webchat thread and link to this.

MNHQ

OP posts:
Builde · 21/09/2009 10:23

I do think that we are probably all a bit sensitive about these things. My summer born dd has been absolutely fine at school. (and many summer born children are fine and enjoy themselves thoroughly).

However, I think that it is appalling that there is no choice at all about when you start and if you delay a start, you have to go straight into Year 1 (which would be a shock).

I also think that the issue of premature babies is a big one. By 4, a very premature baby has probably not caught up at all. They should not be going to school when they are effectively 3.5. Very wrong...

However, I believe that where we live, parents of children born within a week of 1st September can choose when they start school.

It is a shame that we have a reception year...I do think it hinders a lot of children.

GeraldineMumsnet · 21/09/2009 12:46

Consider me prodded , will set about trying to get Sir Jim on for a webchat.

OP posts:
tingler · 22/09/2009 09:43

This thread has clarified to me that there are two ways to approach this problem.

Firstly, there is the underlying problem which is that we are starting formal education very young due to parents' needs, not children's needs, with the result that many children not only do not benefit but are put off. Presumably Jim Rose felt it was outside the terms of his remit to try to change this - a massive investment in pre-school education would be needed and that's not going to happen at the moment.

Secondly, there is the "exceptional child" issue. It does seem that certain distinct categories of children are emerging for whom the early start date is so utterly unsuitable that it can be predicted before they even start that it is likely to be damaging to them notwithstanding the teachers' best efforts to differentiate the curriculum

The "exceptional child" category appears to include:

  • Children with a language delay, particularly if they have problems understanding language.
-Children with a social skills delay
  • Children with fine motor skills delays
  • children still classed as being within the normal range but who are immature in respect of language, play and fine-motor skills.
  • Children who are born prematurely and who would not have had their fourth birthday had they been born at term.

From my time hanging out on the special needs board, it appear that the "exceptional child" category is unlikely to include many children with a moderate to severe disability. But if you take a child with, say, downs syndrome at the mild end of the spectrum, then the ability to defer could make all the difference between being able to access the curriculum or not (depending of course on the child).

If the "exceptional child" category is accepted, you have to ask who decides whether the child falls within the category. Is it the parent or the speech therapist or the nursery or the paediatrician? And if a child is within this category, they may need to defer even if they have a January or February birthday - not just August.

There will be some children - like mine - where parents, teachers, therapists and doctors are united in recomending deferral. In such clear-cut cases, where an LEA's costs of an extra year's nursery are likely to be saved later (because the child won't need a Statement if given time to mature), surely exceptions must be made. Where parents disagree with other professionals, or whether parents have been exposed to other cultures where we start school later and would prefer this for their child, that is a bit trickier.

Jim Rose must be asked to address this issue.

Builde · 22/09/2009 09:54

There is a piece of research about premature babies and special needs. Something along the line of, if they had been allowed to start later, they wouldn't have needed to be statemented.

Can't remember anymore than that!

Advice to parents...choose a school that is mixed. (e.g. not just middle-class, academic parents).

The reception teachers at a school with a varied intake (cultural, income, behavioural) will not be thrown by a summer born child who isn't ready for school.

pinkfluffyworld · 23/09/2009 12:53

Hi, my DD1 is April born and has just gone into yr1. She started Reception last Sept, but didn't go full time until Jan which was just right for her - they get so tired. There was a girl in her class (Aug born) who didn't even start until Jan and was part time until the summer term. They are in the same class now and there doesn't seem to be any difference between their ability.
On the flip side, in the same class is a girl who turned 5 before she even started school (and has just turned 6). her mum syas that she is struggling to make friends as she complains that the other children's games are babyish. She is also a lot taller than the rest of the class, including the boys!
In this instance surely the school/parents should be allowed to agree that a child goes up a year. They do it in the States!

Tatti · 23/09/2009 16:54

I have twin boys born in July. They were allowed a part time start but it didn?t help with their ability to keep abreast with the work long term and there were a lot of older children in the year, including girls who were very bright for their ages. After 10 years of feeling they were always struggling to keep up (through an unlucky birthday and not their fault) they have repeated a year and now they are the older ones not the youngest. Fantastic! Wish we?d done it years ago!

marytuda · 23/09/2009 21:06

Am reading all this with great interest. My son now just two has August birthday, and I am horrified at the thought of putting him under any pressure at the tender age of just 4. He seems bright enough now, and local surestart playgroup leaders, who also teach reception, have told me not to worry. That they know we are mixed-race but native English speakers in a very multi-cultural innercity area is probably a factor. Many children round here start school with English as second language, so whatever his comparative age my son should have a major advantage. Still, I would hate to put him off learning for life & would struggle to go private rather than risk exposing him to early humiliation.
His cousin, a July born boy now aged 6, is at the bottom of his class (and knows it, apparently) - he has the "disadvantage" of living in all-white middle class catchment area (chosen incidentally for this reason by his parents soon after his birth - a big mistake, possibly!) What a nightmare all of this is. . . and only just the beginning . .

linglette · 24/09/2009 10:27

Yes, Builde's advice is really interesting and counter-intuitive.

christiana · 24/09/2009 22:47

Message withdrawn

GeraldineMumsnet · 25/09/2009 11:14

Hello, Ed Balls has come back to us with a longer reply about summer-born babies and the Rose review, following on from his webchat.

EdBalls: Many of you raised questions about your summer-born children and the proposals contained in the Rose Review on when they can start school. I wasn?t able to answer all your questions on it then, so I wanted to take the time now to tell you a little more about why we are making the changes we are, and to ask for your views on them.

As I said, many of the parents I speak to want their children to start school later in the year they turn five, while others want the option to start their children at school in September and don?t want to wait till January or April, as they currently have to in some local authority areas. Some of you wanted to know why we don?t organise school entry so that parents of summer-borns who they feel are particularly young for their age can start in reception the year after they turn 5.

Parents know their children best and our proposals give them more choice about when they want their children to start school. I want all parents to be able to choose to start their children at school in the September after they turn four if that is what they want. Sir Jim Rose found good evidence that it is best for children?s attainment and progress if they all start school together in September.

However, since many parents feel their summer-born children are not ready for school at the beginning of the year after they turn four, I would like more schools to let them go to school part-time during Reception. For those who prefer to keep their children in other early learning settings, we will in future offer 25 hours of nursery or early education free (rather than the 15 hours that children get now) during the school year after they turn four until they reach compulsory school age. Compulsory school age will remain the September after children turn five and will not change as a result of these reforms. Choosing to start your child later should not affect admissions to school and your child should not lose out on a place at a school because he or she starts later.

One aspect of the reforms Jim Rose set out which I didn?t get the chance to mention was about the curriculum. The Early Years Foundation Stage, which children now follow in Reception, is all about learning through play, which makes school easier to cope with for younger children. And Jim Rose?s new primary curriculum is also meant to ensure there is an easier transition between Reception and Year 1, again making it easier for summer born children to cope with school. I hope this will reassure some of you, who feel school in year 1 will be too much for your summer-borns. Jim Rose also made it clear he thought schools should take more account of the needs of younger children when teaching classes and assessing progress.

Many of those who posted were particularly upset that we are not proposing allowing those children starting school after they turn five to start in reception rather than year 1. There are a number of reasons why I felt that wasn?t the right thing to do. The evidence we have suggests it is better for children to start school earlier rather than later, and there is a risk that a wider range of starting dates might actually end up disadvantaging summer borns who go to school after they turn four more as they would be learning with much older children. Instead, I wanted to look for other ways to ensure that children who are younger have a successful transition to full-time school.

I know some posters were worried about their summer born children with SEN who would face particular difficulties with coping if starting school in the September after they turn four. These proposals mean you will not have to start your children in school then if you do not want to. However, you may find that starting school earlier plus other improvements to SEN provision mean that your child would be getting the additional help they need earlier.

While I have announced that we are taking the proposals from the Rose Review forward, I am of course always interested to hear your views on this important issue.

OP posts:
VulpusinaWilfsuit · 25/09/2009 11:52

Well, great that he got back with such a detailed answer.

But I still don't understand the response. I mean, I understand it but I am not convinced.

Will be offering free nursery hours to allow kids to do reception part-time? Hmm, we'll see - I imagine the cuts/election will scupper that.

And it won't solve the problem of a child who just isn't ready for school; it just means they will get 'less' schooling overall.

And as for the main reasons for not allowing deferral! 1. There is evidence starting school earlier is better? Better in which ways? For whom? Kids overall? Summer-borns? Which evidence? The IFS data? That simply says children who start at just 4 are better off than those who enter Year 1 without having done reception. Not convinced by his point here and I would like some clarification.

  1. Allowing deferral (reception for summer borns to start at just-5) might disadvantage those summer-borns who DO start at just 4?

MIGHT? For fuck's sake, Ed. Do a proper study and find out?! This sounds like pure speculation based on Rose's somewhat lame report. And the numbers would be minimal, since many parents would actually still choose a just-4 start date.

Come on. Own up. This is about economics and class. You fear that the only people who would be able to afford to defer are the middle classes. And then you would feel you must extend the free nursery places for a year because you fear challenge over equal opportunities. Which would be a fair challenge. And politically explosive potentially.

But NONE of that is about what is actually in the interests (pedagogic and emotional) of children.

paranoid2 · 25/09/2009 14:06

and no mention of premature children??

Buda · 25/09/2009 16:21

Doesn't actually help Mr Balls. Not at all. My DS started at 4 and coped fine in Reception. He had had a year of Nursery before (we are in an international school overseas). He is now in Year 4 and it is NOW that he is struggling. If he was in Year 3 (like a friend of his who was lucky enough to be born on 1 September) he would be fine. As it is we are lucky to be able to access support for him with fine motor skills and maths. I feel very strongly that this extra support would be unnecessary if he was in Year 3. His confidence is being knocked which has a knock-on effect in his interest and enthusiasm for school.

There are lots of articles currently in the media about how the current education system is letting boys down. Perhaps this is because they start too early? Have a look at what they do in Denmark. As far as I know they start boys a year later than girls there. I knew a woman who had boy/girl twins and the girl started a full year earlier than the boy. Didn't seem to cause a problem there.

I am Irish and I know that in Ireland children CAN start the term after they turn 4 but do not legally have to be in school until they are 6. In practice most start around 4 or 5. They all start in Junior Infants which is the equivalent of Reception. Seems to work ok there.

It can be done. It may take a bit of time and a bit of effort to sort it out and get it up and running but it can be done.

In the meantime I thank God that when we return to the UK we will be in a position to put DS in an independent school and they have already agreed that he can go down a year.

linglette · 25/09/2009 18:43

Dear Mr Balls,

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply and to say that you are asking for our views.

I note all your points and acknowledge the positive aspects, particularly the changes to the Year 1 curriculum. As a very frustrated campaigner on this issue(albeit one who has succeeded in her fight for her own son)I would like to make the following comments to you on the point that "we are not proposing allowing those children starting school after they turn five to start in reception rather than year 1."

You said: "The evidence we have suggests it is better for children to start school earlier rather than later". I have found no evidence that August born children benefit from starting school at 4.0 rather than 5.0. I see statistical evidence in the "When you are born matters" report that starting at 4.0 may be better than starting in April at 4.9 for most children. The reason that starting in April is bad is that the children have to play catch-up. How much bigger a game of catch-up would they have to play, however, if you forced them straight from nursery into Year 1? It simply defies common sense to suggest that a child could simply slot into Year 1. I see NO evidence that it is better to start reception at 4.0 than 5.0. But comparisons to our neighbours in Scotland suggest that their children do not suffer at all from a potentially later start. Where is the clamour from Scots to more to the English system? There is none. But spend a little time on this board and you will see many English parents longing for the Scottish system.

Please remember that Sir Jim Rose simply made an a priori assumption that all children were in school at 4 years +. He never even considered any evidence for or against allowing year deferral for reception. That is just not good enough. These are very vulnerable children. I consider that he entirely failed to meet your brief and should be invited to reconsider.

Mr Balls, if I managed to get my speech therapist, nursery manager, consultant paediatrician and school headmistress to write to you confirming their opinions that, as a result of Bradford Council having allowing him to defer by a year (i)my child's needs are being better met and (ii)the cost of meeting my child's needs is now likely to be much lower (as the need for a Statement has been removed), would that help you persuade Jim Rose to do the job he was asked to do? This is not a rhetorical flourish. I do not mean it aggressively. This is something I am prepared to do, even at the cost of the confidentiality of my child's medical records.

As for SEN, "The additional help he needs" is, in my son's case, extremely simple - it is to be with the right cohort. Very, very, cheap, very effective and yet transformative of his life chances. He has started his second nursery year this month and already I see him blossoming, but would we have dared to let him blossom at 4 only to crush him by placing him in Year 1 at 5 against the advice of all the health professionals? I don't know.

I appreciate your concern about immature children whose parents don't defer. I share it, frankly. There is enormous peer pressure on parents not to defer, so only highly educated parents here in Bradford choose deferral. If parents were educated as to the fact that starting later (as on the continent and in Scotland) does not detract from end achievements provided the child gets to "start from the beginning", then more parents would defer. It could become the norm to allow parents choice not just in "where" their child goes to school, but also "when".

Mr Balls, I suspect there is a legal case to be made against the effective forced 4.0 school starting age. I would have gone to the courts if I'd been forced to. If a child is entitled to a free education starting at 5 years, how can it be lawful to deny that child entry into the year group in which he or she will be taught to read or write? It is effectively denying the child an education.

Enough from me, Mr Balls, but will you please read the letter below? It's from a headmaster in the Bradford area, reacting with horror to Bradford LEA's proposals to change its policy to remove the option to year-defer reception entry, a policy-change that you are now threatening to simply impose:

" I am writing to raise an objection in the strongest possible terms, to the proposals to discourage, and indeed prevent deferred entry for summer born children from 2010.
In this climate of "Every Child Matters" and "Personalising Learning", it seems that these agendas and principles do not matter if the needs of a very small number of very young and vulnerable children might cause a little increase in administration. The only impact of deferring entry is the addition of a note on the pupil census to explain why there appear to be additional children in infant class.
In my many years as a teacher and a head, I have always tried to make decisions in the best interests of individual children. Summer born children, particularly those with mid to late August birthdays, are at a distinct disadvantage in our educational system, particularly as children in this country start formal school far too early at the age of 4+ in any case. As a reception class teacher and for many years as a Head Teacher, I have encouraged parents to make their own decision based upon their superior knowledge of their children, and I have always undertaken to support them fully in that decision.
Young children who are forced into formal education too soon suffer from lack of confidence and self-esteem, and this impacts on their personal well-being as well as progress and attainment. For many children, the impact stays with them until GCSE and later life. Conversely, those who defer entry come to school confident and mature. They do well both personally and academically. Surely this should be the priority!
We are not talking about huge numbers of children. I currently have 2 children in my 2-form entry school whose entry was deferred by agreement to meet their needs. A further child will enter in September 2008. All the children concerned remain in good quality nursery settings, accessing appropriate provision and environment until the term after they are 5, which is, after all, their legal entitlement. They remain with their admission cohort throughout the school and leave with them in Y6.
........
The proposals outlined clearly remove the option of deferred entry from parents, as you quite rightly point out that Year 1 classes will be full. To suggest or require that children should be placed directly into Y1 and miss the last year of the foundation stage is outrageous. Anyone with any understanding of the needs of young children should know this.
I note that a study reported nationally this morning has highlighted the issue of admission age in England, and found that English children do not benefit from starting school so young. Having recently visited schools in Europe and experienced the success and confidence of hcildren who start school at 6 or 7 years old, folowing universal Kindergarten provision, I would go further and say that our current system disadvantages even 5 year old children. To impose formal schooling on children who have just had their 4th birthday is cruel and inappropriate.
I would like to have sight of the rationale that led to this proposal. As it is, I cannot identify one advantage of this proposal to children. If every child really does matter to Bradford, then this proposal should be rejected."

I am happy to write to you directly giving my full name and address.

slowreadingprogress · 25/09/2009 19:41

"I want all parents to be able to choose to start their children at school in the September after they turn four if that is what they want." On what evidence is that wish expressed, that all parents should be able to start their children at school at 4? Why do you want that? As linglette says the only evidence I'm aware of about this simply evidences that it's better for kids to start at the same time, not at FOUR specifically, or 'earlier rather than later'. What evidence is there that 4 is better, rather than simply that starting all together is better? I'd be interested to read any specific research on that.

upamountain · 25/09/2009 20:39

Dear Mr Balls,

Again, thankyou for taking the time to reply and come back to this.

If there is a reason for being in politics it must be to represent the views, particularly of those who are not able to, and really make a difference.

You could make a difference to my son's life.

He is similar to others a language delayed just 3 year old who will start school next year and will struggle.I have other children already in the school system and I do know what is expected despite the early years foundation.

One more year and his language should reach his peer's level and I believe he would actually thrive.

I don't want part time school for reception - there is no benefit.I want him to start school the term immediately after he turns 5 - full time to get the full benefit.

Please relook at this.What you are proposing won't make a difference to those children like mine.You can make a difference.I can't.

It works in Scotland.It can work here also.
Please reconsider.

It would probably ruffle some feathers as decisions have already been taken to change things from the proposals you have set out.

Take linglette up on her offer - she speaks with passion and intelligence about something many of us care deeply about.

linglette · 25/09/2009 20:59

Am thinking of taking DS2 to meet Mr Balls as he is just south of Leeds. Anyone else want to toddle along?

RacingSnake · 25/09/2009 22:40

No time for long post but wanted to write a sentence or two and be part of thread. DD was due mid September but born two months premature in July. Will now be expected to go into Reception when she will really be 3.11.

We will probably miss reception and try to find a school that will accept her straight into year 1, having missed out on all the benefits of a reception year. But better that than a 3-year old in formal school.

Am dreading the whole thing and feel so guilty that I let her down to that extent. And I am sooooooooo angry that I am not allowed to make such a vital decision about my child's life. Why shouldn't she simply be allowed to have that year back and start school when she is ready? How does Ed Balls know what is best for my child? (I am a primary school teacher and know how bad it will be for her.)

ellasmum1 · 26/09/2009 03:22

Hi,I would like to add my concern about this, as a mum of a lovely 13 mth old boy who was born on 30th August.
I don't want to feel worried and guilty when I send him off to school.
I don't want him to be constantly struggling to keep up and lose his self confidence, and potentially end up disliking school.
My dd was 4 and a half when she started school and found it hard enough.
I would do anything to be able to defer a year, but only if he can start in reception- why should he have to miss a year

Jajas · 26/09/2009 08:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Madsometimes · 26/09/2009 18:50

So Ed Balls is saying that some parents may choose not to defer their children. These children will complete a reception year with more mature children, including some who are over a year older than them. If a parent makes a bad choice about deferral, then it would be doubly bad for that child if other parents had made the right choice for their own children.

OK Ed, I get this, I really do. How about if a reception teacher has a very young child for a year, perhaps with speech delay, concentration problems, toileting problems, and they think

"Oh dear, little Johnny has barely coped in reception, he will really struggle in year 1. I wish their parents had opted for deferral"

The solution here is that the reception teacher could discuss Johnny's problems with his parents and the head teacher. She could then recommend that he spend a further year in reception, rather than go up to year 1.

If a teacher recomended a child of mine to repeat a year, I would have no problems with that at all. There would be no stigma attached to that if it is done some time during KS1. I do understand that reception classes cannot go over 30 normally, and this could cause some problems with administration.

In fact, this seems to boil down to expecting all our children to fit into neat little boxes to aid administration.

jackstarbright · 26/09/2009 23:31

Mr Balls - You state that 'Sir Jim Rose found good evidence that it is best for children?s attainment and progress if they all start school together in September.' Were you just referring to the IFS report? Because it doesn't support that statement in my view:

In the words of the IFS report:

'Whilst, ... August-born children do benefit from starting school earlier rather than later (for example, in the September, rather than the January or the April, of their
reception year), this makes only a modest positive contribution to test scores and only at early Key Stages. ..... Clearly, other policy options are needed in order to eliminate the August birth penalty.'

But, because the research compares September and August children within a school - all that the IFS report shows is the gap between August and September children is slightly narrower when they all start at the same time. However, the research doesn't allow for the September children's performance being a variable. What if the impact of all children starting at the same time is detrimental to the September children? The August children may be no better off and in that case, you have not addressed the real issue at all with this policy. Especially as, according the the IFS report, the impact of the staggered start is reasonably short term.

mimmum · 27/09/2009 10:01

Sorry to be controversial but to me this reply just shows comtempt to all parents out there in this situation. Firstly it doesn't answer our concerns at all secondly it assumes we're so stupid we can't see for ourselves what the evidence says and what it means. The sooner this government is gone the better. There got that all off my chest!

slowreadingprogress · 27/09/2009 14:47

It is so disingenuous it makes me so angry. The Rose Report does not state that it is better for kids to start reception at 4 just that it is better for them to start all together with the whole year's cohort rather than in Jan or April (thus having less time in reception)

Administration clearly makes it tricky for kids to defer. If I had done this my 5 year old ds would have been starting, potentially, with other kids who had just turned 4 (who didn't defer) and 5 yr olds who are rising 6. So a two year age range in a class. Just needs some positive, pragmatic planning for and this could happen.

Madsometimes · 27/09/2009 15:03

Another thing which makes my blood boil is that desparate parents are paying for private education just so that their children can be in the correct year group for their needs. In many cases, these are parents who would prefer to use their local state schools.

It is shocking that a Labour government should stand back and prevent state educated students accessing an education which is appropriate for their individual needs. As Lingle has reiterated time and time again, by starting her son at 5.0 she will save the tax payer money. He will not need the raft of SEN measures which would have to have been put in place had he started at 4.0.