Yes/no poll on religion in state schools.

[seeker]

Do you think state schools should be secular, but with RE lessons giving information about all the main world religions as part of the curriculum?

secularism as religion?

What is a religion? Dictionary.com says:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

1. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

So in definition 1, although secularism doesn't have a superhuman agency, it is a set of beliefs about the cause (coming together of atoms), nature (material) and purpose (to not worship any God at all). As for devotional and ritual observances and moral code, you only have to read a newspaper or magazine or watch tv to see that a secular society has a particular expection of how people should behave (tolerance, no extremism or fundamentalism, being open to all experiences, not criticising anyone's beliefs among others)

In 2, secularism could be defined as a religion because it has a lot of followers! By which I mean, people who think that life should be secular (=godless) except in the privacy of one's own home or temple.

?

Tinfoil, I am not sure how I feel about the Christmas element. Obviously the nativity is important to the 3 biggest groups who have any involvement with religion: non-believers who like the cultural element, Christians and Muslims.

Children generally enjoy Christmas, and it seems mean to remove it. But I cannot speak for people who might have no cultural link to the nativity and find the whole thing annoying.

I am irritated by things like this (as reported by my daughter):

Teacher: How did the Universe begin?
Clever 8 year old (not my DD): Gives accurate description of the Big Bang
Teacher: But who do you think caused the Big Bang to happen? It can't just have happened, someone must have made it happen.

This was in a state school, and not a Church one.

The question is, do I hate the mixing of religion and science so much that I would ban the fun of Christmas in school and santa bringing presents into the school party? I don't know.

That sounds great, seeker. It's a nice open question which could be debated either way.

Interestingly, my dd is currently writing an essay on what she thinks of "intelligent design" as proof or otherwise of God's existence - and I'm really pleased. Just the sort of RE I want her to have.

(that last bit was obviously meant to be in quotes! I'll get used to this one day...)

I thought for one wonderful moment that your dd was doing it too, and I was going to suggest they got on MSN and pooled their ideas!

Woowa, you need to look at the definition of 'secular' not of 'religion':

sec⋅u⋅lar  ?adjective 1. of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal: secular interests.

1. not pertaining to or connected with religion (opposed to sacred ): secular music.
2. (of education, a school, etc.) concerned with nonreligious subjects.
3. (of members of the clergy) not belonging to a religious order; not bound by monastic vows (opposed to regular ).

As has been pointed out before on this thread, secular is NOT a synonym for atheist.

Yes, it can't be said often enough - secular does not equal "godless".

(Is it me or is that term "godless" horribly judgemental? Is it just because that insane screaming harpie Ann Coulter used it as the title of her anti-liberal rant "book", I wonder?)

"Teacher: How did the Universe begin?
Clever 8 year old (not my DD): Gives accurate description of the Big Bang
Teacher: But who do you think caused the Big Bang to happen? It can't just have happened, someone must have made it happen."

My dh would absolutely agree with questioning the big bang. He does not agree that Darwin & the Big Bang theory tell the whole story. He simply can not accept that the ear came about through evolution alone. Although he would consider that an Alien life force has interfered with the design of life on this planet rather than a Christian God.

Totally agree with DP's right to express an opinion but with that everyone else has the right to disagree - it's called a healthy debate.
On the subject of faith Schools, I could happily tolerate part-funding them (the non relgious part anyway) through my taxes as long as their admission policy did not discriminate against children on the basis of faith - think this is a most un-Christian approach to admissions anyway and all non faith schools were secular.

secular secular secular. but still teach RS, it's an interesting subject.

after all, you don't have to believe in Zeus to study Classics.

asking what bought about the big bang = fair enough. so long as it is cool for kids to ask why dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the cresation myth...

Secularism doesn't rule out a sense of the transcendent.

Although he would consider that an Alien life force has interfered with the design of life on this planet rather than a Christian God.

But then where did the alien life force come from?

A teacher of 8 year olds is probably not sufficiently qualified in physics and cosmology to make assertions such as "It can't just have happened, someone must have made it happen."

That sort of thing makes me quite cross actually. Er, no, it most certainly doesn't require a 'someone'.

I've never heard of Anne Coulter or her book but 'godless' does sound judgemental. The term has a long history of being used entirely negatively.

god-free is better.

Good question GrimmaTheNome but that would require knowledge of Alien life force...if you believe in God exists - how was God created?

Really? That sounds judgemental towards anyone who believes in God, as if a faith is something nasty that you should try to be "free" from. A bit like "free from E-numbers".

"god-free is better."

Could God have created evolution?

"He simply can not accept that the ear came about through evolution alone."

Not if you believe the Bible, no.

And I can get quite quite frustrated with my kids singing "All things bright and beautiful" - I really dislike that song!

I have asked my kids if God created all the beautiful things - what/who created all the ugly things? Hope they ask that question at school - would love to know.

Tinfoil - from UQD's and my perspective it sounds better . Other suggestions for neutral term welcome!

When I believed in God, I believed he created evolution for his purposes. Evolution was clearly right so he must have... backwards logic to be sure but it seemed to make sense at the time.

But positing a God is a solution vastly more fraught with logical difficulties than the physics and biology of Big Bang and evolution.

And Creationism isn't on the National Curriculum.

NoIdea, there is a simply brilliant parody of 'all things' by Eric Idle which addresses that very issue.

What's wrong with "secular"? No value judgements at all.

'Who put the colours in the rainbow' is even worse though ... 'It surely can't be chance'... I nearly erupted in DDs class assembly at that false assertion

GTN Will google the Eric Idle version, really don't like the "Who put the colours in the rainbow?" - makes me feel like screaming.

I actually don't think we need to declare ourselves godless, godfree, ungodly or ungodded, any more than we need to be fairyless, fairyfree, unfairyish or unfairied. Why be forced to define in terms of something whose existence you don't acknowledge?

I was walking down our local high street today and there was this bloke who had set up this display about Creationism in the middle of the street and was ranting at the top of his voice about dinosaurs and carbon dating. I was quite tempted to stop and pick a fight engage him in friendly debate.