Yes/no poll on religion in state schools.

[seeker]

Do you think state schools should be secular, but with RE lessons giving information about all the main world religions as part of the curriculum?

"if you can't tell the difference between a divorced man/widower bringing up his own child...to a child placed with two gay men....i'm not sure there is anything more i can do for you."

DP, assume that I'm really thick and that I genuinely cannot tell the difference. Could you explain it to me in short sentences please?

daftpunk, the reason I have not come up with anything "groundbreaking" (who says I did??) is that it is very difficult to keep making the same reasonable points over and over again in ways which sound startlingly new and original. Its like trying to say The Sky Is Blue in a million different ways.

You don't need "groundbreaking" arguments for secular education. The old ones will do just fine until they have been adequately refuted. I'm afraid it's you that sounds "pompous and out of touch".

The point is that, whatever the arguments, there are people who want religion in their lives and people who don't.

One could argue that the people who do are in a minority, but assuming for a moment that we are going to respect that minority, the only way round this in education is to give parents the choice.

What, I hear you cry? Give parents the choice? Isn't that a word you hate? Isn't that just the empty government-speak that you rail against all the time?

Well, yes. I don't mean "give parents the choice between a goddy and a non-goddy school." I mean "give parents the choice whether or not to have religion in their family life."

And the only way to make that choice meaningful is to make schools secular. Keep schools out of the whole thing. If you want religion, go and get it at church, synagogue or mosque. I ain't going to stop you. I think your deity is a made-up imaginary friend, but I respect your right to believe any old myths you want, to be honest, as long as I don't have to. You can believe David-Icke-ism if you want, as long as my children and I don't have to listen to it.

With competing religious and atheist voices, the only sensible compromise is to make schools neither atheist nor religious, but secular.

RedAction, you do know you are wasting your time, don't you? Rational argument and evidence have no impact on the person you are trying to have a discussion with.

I just can't keep away. I know it's useless, but I can't stop myself.

dp - if you want choice, why don't the children whose parents want them to worship God at school have a prayer group at lunchtime? Or why don't they miss a bit of assembly to go somewhere else and pray?

seeker;

lots of parents love faith schools... because whether you accept it or not, they're some of the best schools in the country, so they must be doing something right....agree..?....i know this isn't about catholic schools, or CofE schools.....but i'm not sure non faith schools are raming christianity down pupils throats..... i very much doubt they are,.....as i have said to you, i know of schools where God is never mentioned.

i don't know how many parents in this country want secular schools...? what percentage is it..? 50%...75%...or 2%...? do you know?

RedAction....(i think i know who you are)

you know...i take so much abuse on here...almost weekly i am called either mental, racist, thick.,..people say things like "oh god..we don't want anymore DM readers...one DP is enough"....and they mean it..
i take it all on the chin, mainly because i dont give a flying fuck what anyone thinks of me...and also because i know i'm not really saying anything wrong.....i'm saying what 1000's of other people think.
i wouldn't say anything on here i wouldn't say in RL..

the good thing about places like this is you can thrash out arguments....get lots of opinions and thoughts...that's what makes any conversation interesting...do you always agree with your DP..? there are times i could kill my DH..but i love him and except we have different ideas.....that makes life interesting.

i don't agree with gay parenting...but so what?...i would still be your friend....

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT FAITH SCHOOLS!!!!! I AM TALKING ABOUT ORDINARY STATE PRIMARY SCHOOLS!!!!!

And for what seems like the millionth time, any school that does not mention God is BREAKING THE LAW!!!!!!!!!

There is no point shouting Seeker - dp seems genuinely unable to hear you, let alone listen.

seeker...do you actually read my posts..?

i know this isn't about faith schools, i said that..i also said i doubt christianity is forced on pupils as much as you think...i also asked you to let me know the percentage of parents in this country who want secular schools.....

yes they should be secular and yes there should be RE lessons so kids can learn about other people's faiths.

woops, massively missed the fact that there's a big rant going on!

I don't think I will post again on this thread (though will doubtlessly keep obsessively reading).

at Daftpunk wanting children to remain in care rather than be adopted by a homosexual couple. Do you know the outcomes for children in care? Compared to the fact that children of homosexual couples have similar outcomes to those of hetero couples?

I am glad I have been able to give an alternative viewpoint from a faith perspective. I value my faith - it is exceptionally important in my life (I'm not a club-type churchgoer, it is a lifestyle for me, and I do get annoyed with the ongoing references to me having an "imaginary friend" etc, though I realise that the people who do this can no more be persuaded that God exists that I can be persuaded that he doesn't!!)

There are a lot (a huge amount) of Christians out there who are not blinkered about education, parenting, abortion, race, homosexuality etc. I get very annoyed with the ones who give the rest of us a bad name. I go to a happy clappy evangelical church and you won't meet those attitudes there! We care for the sick, homeless, addicted, lonely, mentally ill with no strings attatched. We have members from all over the world (ever continent) and our African members recently cooked lunch for the entire congregation as a thank-you for our care for asylum seekers. I'm not blowing our trumpet - but we are very far from the narrow view of many about what constitutes an evangelical church. We don't preach (except in Sunday services) when people can come along if they want. No pressure!

I despair at the views that have been expressed here. I only hope that some of you will go away with an idea that being a Christian is more like what I have tried to portray than dp.

I think that local community schools should be secular and not have daily act of prayer but that children should be taught about all world religions... would perhaps be appropriate to mark special religious days eg christmas, ramadan, passover by showing customs as long as no act of prayer required. That was secular parents can send their children to school without fear of indoctrination.

That being said, I think also that all parents should have the option of state funded faith schools. I think there should be more of them. Perhaps even could have a school of more than one faith where child streamed just for prayer and religious education. I agree with the current system whereby the state pays for the secular education and the parents pay voluntary contributions to the religious education.

Although I understand the argument that all faith schools should be private, what would happen in this situation is that deeply religious poorer parents send their children to underfunded private schools often where no effort is made to teach national curriculum and child can come out illiterate and innumerate, and hence unproductive members of society with little prospect of employment. At least with faith state schools, they are carefully monitored at have to dedicate more than 50% of the time to the secular curriculum.

If schools such as MumNW talks of in the last para exist, they should be dealt with well ahead of state faith schools! (Home edding should also be carefully monitored for similar reasons. Some home edders are doubtless excellent... not all I fear)

Faith schools are the lesser evil compared to that scenario. I guess the distribution varies around the country but we definitely dont need any more where I live, the number is vastly out of proportion to the churchgoing population.

weegie, thanks for redressing the balance - not that I didn't already know, I used to be one of your ilk

Can somebody sensible- mumNW, for example, explain to me in words of one syllable such as a bear of very little brain could understand why anybody thinks that there is any place at all in a state school (not a faith school) for Christian worship. Children are at school for about 6 hours a day. Can Chriatians not go 6 hours without praying? Am I missing something?

I have to say I feel a bit like the days when people smoked in public. I couldn't understand why my desire to breathe air without smoke in it was somehow trumped by a smoker's need to fill the air with smoke.

I want education without religion in it. But for some reason, the people who want religion in it carry more weight than I do - and I really really don't understand why.

Sorry - I don't want education without religion in it. I want education without the practice of religion in it. Happy to have tons of education about religion!

This is exactly the thing I don't get, either, seeker.

After all, it should not be up to us to explain why we don't want religion in schools. It should be up to the religious to explain why they need it. And why in schools, particularly, and not any other taxation-funded state service.

If you stand back and look at it like that, it does seem rather ridiculous.

Seeker, I agree with you that state (not faith) schools should not have christian worship. I think it would be much easier to make provisions for christians to pray in school if it was requested (eg say grace before meals) the same as provisions are made for children of other faiths.

I think in villages and small towns where the only choice of school is a faith school, and there is a high propotion of pupils who are not of that faith, there should be the option of a traditinal christian asembly and a secular one. Maybe this could be achieved by one asembly one day and the other the next. Children would not feel excluded as they would not be in such a small minority.

Weegiemum - as I had already mentioned on this thread, you are a real role model for a good Christian

.

snorbs;

will explain it to you in as short a sentance as i can;

Harriet Harmen makes it really easy for me actually...she says things like "men in power can't be trusted"..."it takes a man and a woman to run the country"....yet she happily lets two men bring up a child....? explain that one.

weegiemum;

you don't know anything about me...stop trying to portray me as the anti-christ.....i am a very good catholic, i just don't accept ridiculous laws brought about to keep minorities happy......maybe you should question things more..?

Except Snorbs asked wht you thought, not what Harriet Harman thinks.

Tell you what dp, I know you'd hate for us to think your opinions were uninformed - why don't you do a quick bit of internet research.
Find out the chance of a child leaving care and a) going to university or b) being homeless.

Give us those two percentages, and then explain why that outcome is preferable to adoption. In your own words.