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Education

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Original poster

Yes/no poll on religion in state schools.

625 replies

seeker · 08/09/2009 14:32

Do you think state schools should be secular, but with RE lessons giving information about all the main world religions as part of the curriculum?

OP posts:

daftpunk · 11/09/2009 14:20

snorbs;

one copy of a book would not put me off..

of course not,

but if it became law, that once a week at assembly eveyone had to sing Tom Robinsons glad to be gay, my children wouldn't go there....absolutely no way.

SolidGoldBrass · 11/09/2009 14:37

I really do think that the best way for us rational parents to deal with the superstition pushing is to explain to our DC that there are lots of different special stories about special people like Jesus and Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy and Allah and Zeus and Rama and the rest, and that some people care about their special stories very much (I will be helped in this by DS having a panoply of imaginary friends anyway), so much that they like to think the stories are true. So DS doesn't get upsettingly confused but also appreciates that other people have the right to their opinions.

Snorbs · 11/09/2009 14:40

Oh, I see. So in your world it's ok for children to be forced to sing hymns espousing sentiments that they and their parents may not believe in, but it's not ok for your children to be forced to sing songs that you don't believe in, yes?

Is that not a fairly stark double-standard on your part?

policywonk · 11/09/2009 14:55

Ha, just had a convo about all this that was truly ironic.

DS1's school is much more Christian-focused than any non-faith school needs to be - does way more than the statutory minimum, and his TA last year managed to teach a lesson in which the children were given the impression that God created the world in seven days, etc etc

This term, his new teacher has been using a story about a time traveller, who is supposed to have visited the school and accidentally left various historical artefacts behind - basically it's an ongoing mystery for the kids to solve.

Two of my friends this morning were complaining that this device was giving the kids the impression that Time Lords are real. It was all I could do to yell 'Now you know how I FEEL' (one of my friends is the parish secretary, and we were having this conversation in front of the vicar, so characteristically I didn't quite have the bottle).

SolidGoldBrass · 11/09/2009 14:56

Snorbs: Oh let her carry on. She's doing such a good job of demonstrating the religious mindset, after all.

GrimmaTheNome · 11/09/2009 15:14

I did send DD to a private school, one of the factors was not being able to stomach the idea of pretending to have regained my christianity while she was a preschooler.

Most people simply can't afford to make that choice. (or have the time and ability to home ed...that is an equally stupid 'choice' to suggest ).

Her school does do a 'broadly christian' assembly even though private schools actually don't have to. They have at least got rid of mentioning 'christian ethos' in the prospectus so theres some hope its moving forward out of the historical past.

daftpunk · 11/09/2009 15:52

that's a little unfair SGB, considering i have said i respect all religions, and that i would live by the rules of any country that was gracious enough to have me....unlike you, who is always so insulting of religion.....

you're not religious, fine...but don't force your atheism on others.

GrimmaTheNome · 11/09/2009 16:32

No one is suggesting forcing atheism on anyone.

Having religious worship (however dilute) in schools is forcing it on everyone. Not having it in schools leaves families free do do as they wish.

See the difference yet?

UnquietDad · 11/09/2009 16:47

Yes, people are confusing atheist with secular.

Original poster

seeker · 11/09/2009 16:54

So it's OK to force religion on people, but not OK to force secularism on people?

Daftpunk, do you GENUINELY not see that you're guilty of double standards here? I'm finding it REALLY hard to believe that you genuinely think the things you say you do!!

OP posts:

prettybird · 11/09/2009 16:58

She has still not answered the question re whether she is condoning schools breaking the law re not having a daily act of collective Christian worship.

daftpunk · 11/09/2009 16:59

er...i was actually talking about the way SGB insults all religions...wasn't really talking about the secular school thing...

Original poster

seeker · 11/09/2009 17:09

Why don't you answer direct questions?

OP posts:

daftpunk · 11/09/2009 17:11

prettybird;

i think i've answered your question at least once..

seeker;

i don't think it's being forced as much as you say it is...of course C of E schools will be full on, but i'm sure your bog standard comprehensive doesn't go mad.

and if you want to talk double standards i think you have said that you're happy with the nativity play and a hymn once a week....so, with you it's ok to be a christian for 10 minutes on a thursday.. and the week before christmas.?

prettybird · 11/09/2009 17:22

I must be being blind then, because I can find nowhere where you answer whether or not you agree that schools should break the law and not have a daily assembly where the pupil take part* in an act of Christian worshop.

"Promoting repsect for others" is not an act of collective worship as requiered by the act. I fully repsect that the school that you described is not doubt a good school, but the way you talked about it intially, it IS breaking the law.

I would prefer that schools did not have to break the law - and as such, the law should be changed so that this requirement that all pupils have to take part in an act o collective worship is roemoved.

daftpunk · 11/09/2009 17:51

no, the law should remain as it is..that way head teachers can make up their own minds how best to interpret the law to suit the needs of the school and it's pupils.

if a head teacher stands in frount of his/her pupils and says "good morning, are you all well" ...that's enough to be described as collective worship.

not technically breaking the law is it..?

did anyone ask Ed Balls about secular schools...i didn't read the thread.

GrimmaTheNome · 11/09/2009 18:05

if a head teacher stands in frount of his/her pupils and says "good morning, are you all well" ...that's enough to be described as collective worship.

That's worship is it?

while agreeing that its an entirely good thing that some heads, especially in secondary schools, do turn a blind eye to this ridiculous law, that doesn't mean it makes sense to leave it as it is. If generally law-abiding, responsible people habitually have to break a law, then this is highly suggestive that the law needs reviewing.

Laws have to change as society matures. They shouldn't be set in stone. Or do you think, to take an example currently in the news, that the laws on homosexuality should have remained as they were when they drove Alan Turing to his death?

prettybird · 11/09/2009 18:08

Sorry dp - but that is breaking the law. I have quoted from the Education Act bleow: children muust take part in a daily act of collective worship.

It must be broadly Christian in nature - which means that unless the head teacher is prepared to formally jump through a number of hoops (consulting the parents, proving that a mjority are a different religion and then apply to get approval to change) it must spend a minimum of 51% of its time during this ollective of worship promoting Christianity.

My former school (excellent academic results) got slammed in an HMI report (Scottish equivalent of Ofsted) for not fulfilling this requierment - despite the fact that the education at the school was acknowledged as outstanding.

SteinerstudyPeterStaudenmaier · 11/09/2009 18:10

Religious indoctrination stops children asking questions, it has no place in education.

Original poster

seeker · 11/09/2009 18:22

"and if you want to talk double standards i think you have said that you're happy with the nativity play and a hymn once a week....so, with you it's ok to be a christian for 10 minutes on a thursday.. and the week before christmas.?"

No, I am not being a Christian for 10 minutes. I am taking part in a tradition. My children also take part in a Maypole dance, Eid Ceremonies and Diwali. This does not make them Pagan, Muslim or Hindu. Nor are they pretending to follow these faiths. They are respectfully following a tradition.

Bowing your head and saying "I believe in Almighty God, maker of Heaven and Earth.." and so on is pretending to be a Christian, and I am amazed that you are happy for your faith to be taken so lightly. If I had a faith, I would take it as seriously as I take my Humanist principles, and I would not like people paying it lip service.

OP posts:

Original poster

seeker · 11/09/2009 18:24

"So it's OK to force religion on people, but not OK to force secularism on people?"

Is that what you think, daftpunk?

OP posts:

prettybird · 11/09/2009 18:33

I like the attitude of people like Weegiemum (see her post of 23.31 on Wednesday 9/09): a committed Christian who recognises that it demeans her faith to force people to mouth meaningless (to them - not to her) platitudes.

AnnieLobeseder · 11/09/2009 19:58

DP - if you lived in Israel you would find the state school to be secular.

daftpunk · 11/09/2009 20:19

seeker;

it isn't really being forced is it...you have the right to withdraw your child from collective worship.

the irony here is that most parents are falling over themselves to get their children into faith schools....because they are the best.

Original poster

seeker · 11/09/2009 20:27

You can pray at home. Why are you happy for people to make a mockery of your religion by paying lip service to it?

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