Solving the crisis in state education

[judetheobscure]

Thought I'd start a new thread as the state vs private thread is soooo long; and wanted to focus more on possible solutions.

So, fwiw, here are some ideas (aimed at secondary level):

Abolish private schools
Abolish "religious" schools
Abolish grammar schools, foundation schools, CTCs (are they still called this) and any other form of "specialist" school.

Create across-the-board comprehensive system.

Insist on setting. No mixed-ability classes for academic subjects. Allow plenty of opportunity to move "up" and "down" the sets.

Have units within the schools for problem pupils. Remove them from classes as soon as they become disruptive.

Problem pupils who don't improve and who don't have parents that support the school to be sent to boarding schools. (Not necessarily boarding schools for disruptive pupils but normal boarding schools.)

Restrict higher education to top 20%(ish).
Bring back apprenticeships. (Where's a plumber when you need one).
Money saved on universities can go to restoring student grant and better funding for schools.

Train more teachers and train them better. Don't allow teacher training institutions to spend 90% of the course on educational debates and "gender issues" etc. Classroom management and subject specific skills are far more important.

Anything I've missed (tongue-in-cheek)

It would be good though wouldn't it. Tigermoth for minister for education!

Donnie - you might disagree with aloha - but IMO one thing you can never say about her is that her postings are sleep inducing.

Jimjams, you've got it. You didn't get the special needs consideration because of the the religion, you got it because they actually care. Crosses all sorts of boundaries, that does. I think we can work with it.

YES! I want Batters school --- how does it work. We need to know that.

Tigermoth, what would you do? What would you suggest? What you would suggest has the most chance of working (by my way of thinking).

agh, but we're all agreed in the "start with small victories" philosophy. Step by step. Right?

You said so before (says me in the pouting voice of a five year old)

oh I wish I was clever enough to answer your questons properly jj. I even messed up when putting forward a vague outline. Will keep thinking though.

Oh yes and I still agree on the start with small victories method.

Tigermoth, maybe overturn the 1998 Act? (Unfortunately I think it's a piece of primary legislation --how hard is it to add amendments/changes?)

Whoof, in one swell foop, I'm sure I've managed to bore everyone into not caring. C'mon, surely you don't want more Church control at taxpayer expense (says she in a rallying tone). Um, add an amendment? I guess that's so not the rallying cry.

As I was complaining to my husband (who suggested a Mumsnet Guide to Educational Reform book) tonight: no one even noticed the limerick. I made it up myself, y'know. Admittedly, the Nantucket ones are the easiest.

(uh, just to clarify, that that isn't a radical solution, just curbing the flow a bit)

someone much more sober (uh, sorry) and much more well written (well, nothin' I can do about that!) could say it better.

CAM - is this your youngest daughter? My daughter announced that she wanted to be Jewish last month

tinker, I see what you are saying about indoctrination - in order to reject something you have to know somthing first - so you still think of it from time to time, so it goes round and round. I think you are right, if you hadn't had a catholic education you probably would feel more able to walk away totally. Only you know if it was education about the catholic relgion or pure indoctrination you got at the hands of those teachers.

Say it was shakespeare you were rejecting - you had studied his texts at school, taken part in plays etc. Your teachers told you his writing was the business and anyone with an interest in literature must recognnise this. Then you grow up, read around and decide shakespere is not the greatest after all, in fact you think he is dead boring and past his sell by date. You have an interest in literature but you reject shakespere as a top writer. You still ponder your decision from time to time though. By teaching you about shakespeare and putting forward the view that he is a great writer, have your teachers indoctrinated you or educated you? I don't know.

I knew a little girl who wanted her mother to take her to church. Perhaps it's a phase? Maybe even buffy and similar TV programmes have some influence here. My son announced to me that he wanted to be confirmed, but that's because one of his friends has just been confirmed. I'm letting that one run for a while Lots of his classmates and friends outside school don't go to church, so he sees the other side too.

Yes its my 6 year old dd, Tinker, I think she wanted to go to Sunday School because she knows I used to go as a child and liked it but also because she knows other children in her class go (although not to our particular church). Before she decided this, I hadn't been to church except for weddings, funerals and special events since I left home.

I'm not religious but I am quite pleased the the ds's will be going to a church school and will therefore learn about christianity. I went to a church school, and for quite a while went to church. My choice, not to believe, has been made from an educated position. In other words I know what I am rejecting and why.

I had been feeling a bit bad that I haven't attempted to teach any christianity to the boys as I do believe it is an important part of our culture (in the way that shinto and buddhism are part of Japanese culture). I am glad that someone will teach them for me! I want them to to know the Bible stories, and the reasons for Christmas and Easter. I don't believe it is indoctrination, and to be honest I still don't really see the problem with faith schools. The problem remains a lack of sufficient places in decent schools, whether they are faith schools, community schools, small schools whatever.

But Jimjams, what about, say state-funded political schools, were they were run by political parties and you couldn't get in unless you agreed to join the party or at the very least support the ethos of that political party. it's not reasonable and it's not fair and church schools are exactly the same. How come one is Ok and the other not? I certainly don't want my ds taught what I believe to be myths as truth. Of course I don't mind him being taught about God, but in the same way as he would be taught about Zeus or Inca sun worship or any other religious philosophy or belief system. It's the teaching of religion as truth that I profoundly object to, except in church, where it belongs.

Well I want my kids to go to church schools, because I would like them to have a Christian education. There are plenty of places I and ds are excluded from that I pay for - for example, any of the decent non-church comprehensives in our area, because I can't afford a house near enough to them.

After all, the church invented schools.

And universities

well, I suppose it depends on whether you feel by supporting the ethos of one group you must reject the ethos of any other groups. And that you have to support the full ethos of that one group before you can send your child to that group's school. If it's an all or nothing thing with you then fair enough.

If you feel you can happily support the broad aspects of a group's ethos and still support other groups as well, then you would have less of a problem sending you child to the school. It depends on your personal viewpoint, doesn't it?And how much you think your child will pick up the ethos. Some parents might even feel it is good for a child to get some religious education as school while getting a more athiest view at home.

Of course it also depends on how strict or liberal the school admissions procedure is as well.

I agree with tigermoth and musica. It is because of the atheist household that I am quite keen for the ds's to go to a church school- I want them to make up thier own mind about religion.

And you know in areas where you can't get into church schools unless you're a certified churchgoer- all the good school are selective- just mainly on house prices. The church school ds1 is starting in Septemeber certainly isn't selective on religion. DS1 isn't even baptised. I haven't even been asked about our religion.

Many things are taught to young children as truths which are not- they're either simplifications or not entirely true. I don't think children leave church schools religious nuts. In fact all the people who attended my church school - that I am still in contact with do not attend church. So if they were trying to indoctinate us they didn't do a good job. In fact I don't believe a young child can make an informed choice about religion, that comes later and often has little to do with experiences up to then. Certainly little to do with school. Very few of my adult views have come from my school experiences.

That school was a small village school. It was a church school as the church set it up in the 19th century. The church was a big part of the village community, as was the pub, but the pub could hardly support a school! Church was something I attended at special times of the year, when the whole village tended to go. Lots of clubs were based around the church, brownies, guides, cubs, mums and toddlers. They weren't there to convert, they were just oart of the community as was the school.

Oh I know that Batters- I'm keen for my ds's to learn about all religions really and then to make up his own mind.

TBH I didn't even consider the church bit when I chose his school. I basically have a choice of 2 schools. The other school (community school justround the corner) is lovely as well. It's just very big- which isn't great for autism, has more staffing problems (it's a different LEA and my LEA seems at crisis point - DS1's needs are complex and it easier for a school if they have sufficient staff), and above all has stairs (!!) - and as ds1 has had a bit of a stair obsession for 2 years finding a school without stairs is a plus point. It also leads out right onto a main road and all the children are in one playground. If for some reason ds1 didn't have a breaktime assistant I would worry about him leaving the school grounds and being run over.

The church school has more TA's as the LEA seems to have more cash, is on one level and welcomes parents to help in the classroom (with a non-verbal child this is a big plus). The playground is divided into separate areas for each year group- so if for some reason there was no breaktime assistant I would feel that he was more secure at that school.

Both heads and sencos were great.

So to be honest religion hasn't come into my decision at all. I just don't see the problem with church schools. As you say they learn about religion anyway. The majority of church schools may well bever be selective as there will be enough spaces for true parent choice. The problem remains that in some areas there are too few decent places.

After a visit to see a pupil on work experience yesterday I had a thought and remembered this thread. Thought I run some waffly ideas by you. Might be waffly though as it isn't fully formed yet!

Background: This girl is 14 doing her forst year of GCSEs. She is underachieving across the board but is pretty bright, She has just got top marks in my ICT exam but is only estimated at an F as her coursework (60%) is non-existent. In the classroom she can be a nightmare and has admitted this to her WE placement this week. She plays up to her peers and simply doesn't like school. I suspect she doesn't get much support or encouragement from home either, from what I can gather anyway.

She is currently doing 2 week's placement at a nursery (my daughter's in fact) and she has loved it! The placement are impressed by her and the children really like her. I have never seen her so animated before and she came across as a lovely girl - totally different from at school. She is really interested in pursueing it as a career and has asked lots of questions. She is early to work, late leaving and never takes her full break times. She is always late at school.

What I was wondering was this: should we be offering pupils like this girl an alternative form of education? Maybe 2 days in school and 3 days out. In school she could be studing for her Maths and English exams (as a minimum) and then 2 days she could be undertaking a college type course - in this case her NVQ Level 2 - equivalent to her GCSEs anyway, and possibly something to help with ommunication and other 'life' skills. The 5th day could then be spent in placement getting 'real' experience.

At my school there are a few pupils who would benefit from such a scheme. Several boys plan on being brickayers, fencers, etc. - to get trades - but will struggle to get GCSEs and will basically waste 2 years at school. Rather than changning terms times, holidays, school hours, etc. why can't we offer an alternative?

I know this is a bit long and waffly, but what do people think as a rough idea?

Agree 100% claireandrich; starting at year 10 level presumably?

Judetheobsecure - yes, starting at year 10 when they begin their GCSEs.

our school does have a year 11 scheme where the lowest achieving pupils follow a restricted timetable of exam subjects and go to the local college 2 days a week for a course dealing with 'life' skills. So, I guess this is extending that. Taking on the underachievers and borderline pupils (not just the really poor pupils) to get them doing something they actually want to do in the future. I know some pupils might not know what they want to do - this is why the work placement can prove popular, and they have to be committed to the scheme. So that would need looking into too. I just think that these pupils would be more successful in doing soemthing they want to follow through later. They would see success too and would gain confidence in their ability to do something good. And, they would be taken away from their friends - reduce the peer pressure ssue. As I saID THIS GIRL AS COME ON INLEAPS AND BOUNDS IN JUST TWO WEEKS. nO DOUBT WHEN SHE IS BACK IN SCHOOL NEXT WEEK IT WON'T TAKE LONG TO REVERT BACK TO BEING HER 'NORMA' SELF.

Oops, sorry about the caps!

Agree 100%. I had a long chat with the SENCO at the school where I am doing my PGCE this week. They are looking into starting a certificate of readiness for work (or words to that effect). The certificate covers english, maths, ICT, work and life skills (team work etc) and extended work placements. It sounds like just the thing for pupils like the one you have described. At the moment she is getting nothing our of school, and may be (or become) disruptive, and affect the education of the others in her class. Who is benefiting from her going to school at the moment?

And to blow my own trumpet, the school has given me a job starting in September!