Solving the crisis in state education

[judetheobscure]

Thought I'd start a new thread as the state vs private thread is soooo long; and wanted to focus more on possible solutions.

So, fwiw, here are some ideas (aimed at secondary level):

Abolish private schools
Abolish "religious" schools
Abolish grammar schools, foundation schools, CTCs (are they still called this) and any other form of "specialist" school.

Create across-the-board comprehensive system.

Insist on setting. No mixed-ability classes for academic subjects. Allow plenty of opportunity to move "up" and "down" the sets.

Have units within the schools for problem pupils. Remove them from classes as soon as they become disruptive.

Problem pupils who don't improve and who don't have parents that support the school to be sent to boarding schools. (Not necessarily boarding schools for disruptive pupils but normal boarding schools.)

Restrict higher education to top 20%(ish).
Bring back apprenticeships. (Where's a plumber when you need one).
Money saved on universities can go to restoring student grant and better funding for schools.

Train more teachers and train them better. Don't allow teacher training institutions to spend 90% of the course on educational debates and "gender issues" etc. Classroom management and subject specific skills are far more important.

Anything I've missed (tongue-in-cheek)

JJ part of the problem with getting volunteers is that they now have to get a police check to make sure that they don't have a criminal record that prevents them working with children. As yet the system can hardly cope with the checks on teachers and TAs.

Smaller schools and smaller classes would be a wobderful thing. The downside of smaller schools would be that they are less likley to be culturally diverse, and would also offer a smaller range of subjects.

Getting the parents on side and involved would have a wonderful double effect, the direct help the parent gave the child/school, and the secondary effect of showing the child that the parent values education. It seems crazy to have to say it, but a lot of parents don't value education, schools or teachers. This is possibly to do with bad experiences they may have had as a child but the effect on the pupil can be dreadful.

haven't got time to read whole thread now as am supposed to be ''covering '' a lesson!!! ( but in library so am actually in corner and online ( SACK lazy teachers!!!)
Judetheobscure - you are SOOOOOOOOOO right _ had never realised that you were a teacher until now - but reading your post I just say YES YES YES to it all!

HMB, the diversity issues you raise about smaller schools can be overcome by grouping small schools into clusters. My dd's prevous school (28 pupils) is in a cluster with four other schools (up to 120 in size) and it is a very effective method of opening up communications between different areas and groups. Re subject range - her school has a full range of specialist teachers, (PE, music and art are three that spring to mind) so I'm sure that can be achieved elsewhere, too. There are also developments taking place using technology such as webcams etc to link schools together. In any case, there could still be large schools; the way they are run is what perhaps needs to be challenged, as has been in the US, where minority groups particularly have benefited from small school ethos.

Tigermoth _ i think the whole thing would Only work if you banned private schools at the same time. Otherwise lots of people ( and I include myself- dont flame me, I'm being honest) would bankrupt themselves to keep their children there, paying the extra and going without, rather than moving our children into an "experimental" system. The point is that we all want the best for our children and if there is going to be a level playing field- fantastic, but if there is still a private option, there will always be a 2 tier system.

bayleaf - steady on girl - I'm not used to anyone agreeing with me
suedonim -I like your small schools theory and non-benefits of small classes (if you get my drift). Remember well the tick box syndrome - and IEPs - aarrgh.
Let them leave (for apprenticeships etc.) at 14 - I'll vote for that too.
Got to say, tigermoth, that the private schools have got to go. We want one, equal, fair system?

I have a problem with the shortened school holidays and not just because I am a teacher and need the break from the children to wind down, catch up, plan, etc. My concern of you other parents too:

If we have shorter holidays more of us have to fit our holiday in this time - even higher holiday prices??? Less holiday time - when do teachers get chance to plan, mark, etc? If this was to happen teachers would need to be given the chance to take time off in term time - so if you reduce the holidays by 2 weeks, teachers need 2 weeks floating holiday time, for example. But then who does their work when they are off? Who will have to plan and mark any work set?

Also, playing with the school terms is more hassle than just changing a few dates. It will impact on exam timetables, course structures, leaving dates. Universities and colleges will be affected by these changes if the summer times alter; so will employers taking on school leavers. There is quite a lot of implications in it.

Besides I like my holiday time - it's the main perk of the job - just like some people get cars, health cover, etc!!!!

I am still not sure what will help state schools now as it has been left for so long. Yes, education needs a complete shake-up and soon! Yes, it does need money thrown at it and used more effectively than it has been in the pas. But it has been left for so long that it will take more than just money. To start with, teachers would be good - so many schools, especially secondary, are so badly understaffed with lots of supply staff covering lessons day after day. My school has 11 supply staff attending every single day. Our english teacher is a Jamaican. We have a number of teachers from New Zealand - there just isn't enough teachers to go round at the moment.

As a teacher working only part-time now I don't really want more money. However, if it is the main wage (bearing in mind the length of time for training, paying for uni,etc.) it is low paid when compared to other professions. How people in London manage I have no idea.

Instead I would like more time - planning and marking time, time to make appointments to speak to pupils out of lesson time to discuss coursework progress, time to do decent reports that have meaning. Teachers need to be freed from admin duties too more to give them this time and to concentrate on what they are qualified to do.

I am not sure parental selection of schools has helped either (sorry) as now there are good schools and bad schools in areas. Before this school were a bit more mixed up as children went to the nearest (or catchment one). I can't ever remember my parents discussing which school to send us to for example. There were private schools obviously but they weren't available to our family at that time.

Teacher Training needs to be more hands on and look more at dealing with classroom management. Especially as nowadays this is what a teacher has to concentrate on more than teaching! Sad but true. Maybe, doing it in school with day release type of thing for acedimic studying - a bit like the olden days.

Parents MUST be more involved. Maybe at secondary school all children should sign a contract that sets out what is expected on them and what they get in return. We need zero tolerance on set rules, even the minor ones. I find that if the smaller rules are insisted upon (like uniform, make up, etc.) the bigger ones tend to be sorted out with them. Children have a higher expectation of themselves. Parents should have to have a parent-teacher consultation every year (not sure how this could work but I'd love to see it). This year I have had so many wasted parent's evenings where just 3 or 4 parent's have shown for their appointments - out of my whole classes (often up to about 40-60 possible). At our school parent's often don't support punishments either - don't let their children do lines, detention, etc. But what other punishments can we use?

I think more is needed at primary level too to try and stamp out more problems earlier.

Rules need to be more stricty kept to as well. And the little ones especially. In my experience at my last (good) school things like uniform were really emphasised and children knew what was expected of them - the little rules were kept to so they knew the big ones would have to be as well. Uniform is my big bug bear at the moment. My school has a uniform - on paper it sounds very smart with blazers, shirt and tie. However, children come with shirts out, fashion trousers, tiny short skirts (indecent when pupils sit down for assembly - our male teachers hate looking at a sea of young girls knockers, they feel very uncomfortable at times), ties half done or really short, top buttons undone, trainers on, etc. And management just don't pick them up on it. It drives me mad. If we can get these things right then the more important things would fall into place more easily.

Attendance needs to be watched more carefully too. Just today I am dealing with a year 10 girl on work experience. Her placement has been in touch as she will be off for 2 days to go to a pop concnert in the city 20 miles away. Why two days? Her father has authorised so the deputy heads says that there is nothing we can do about it. Why not? Surely this can't be right - a concert surely should be allowed to disrupt a pupil's GCSE education. I have another boy in my year 11 class who has been to lessons ZERO times this academic year - yes, really. He comes to school and registers but never goes to lessons. And he isn't the only one who misses several lessons every day.

I have suddenly realised I have more thoughts on this than I thought I had! Ooops. There are loads more to be done. Yes, more money to schools, buildings and equipment to be refurbished, more up to date technology (I teach ICT), etc. Enough for now!!!

Let teachers teach instead of being bogged down with totally crappy and unnecessary paperwork.

Lose the pressure for results and league tables etc Focus on life long learning - it does not have to be all about exams.

Offer more variety of subjects that will cater to student's needs - both academic and non academic

Value 'good' teachers and get rid of waste of spaces rather than providing them with brilliant references cause you want to get rid of them to somewhere else (they are often times the one's who get promoted)

I could go on but i am getting frustrated and intend to rejoin the profession - need to keep reminding me what is good about it

ohh it's a difficult one, banning private schools in one fell swoop. How would it work in practice? Suddenly all existing private schools become state run and take in local children? Or you close down all private schools and the pupils have to join a state school? Would there be enough places for them? I just don't know.

IMO ( and feel free to prove me wrong, all you teachers ) a gradual phasing out is a more practical way of getting more equality in education. If you knew in advance that your private schools will not exist in 4 years time, you would be less inclined to put your child in the reception year (perhaps private schools would not be accepting new entrants anyway), yet older children could complete their education without the trauma of changing schools in year 6.

If parents of privately educated children pay a contribution on top of taxes, I can quite see that some might nearly bankrupt themselves to keep their children in a certain school. But if these parents also saw state schools improving by leaps and bounds, would they be so inclined to hold out?

Also, I was thinking you could stagger the contributions, so for the first year parents pay a small amount, but in subsequent years they pay more and more. So parents wouldn't be saddles with a bige extra payment immediately. They would have some years to plan a change from private to state education. Hopefully as the years went by all state schools have improved sufficiently for 99% of parents to consider them a viable alternative. So parents are not faced with the dilemma of either paying through the nose or entering an experimental state education system.

I don't mean that parents of privately educated children should be alone in financing improvements to state education. Their contribution is one of many ways the government funds this.

I don't think private schools need to be banned. Inject loads of money, make necessary changes to the state system and parents will send their children state anyway.

Abolish SATS. Rethink GCSEs and AS/A2's At the moment you may as well give a 5 year old a telephone directory and tell them to learn it by the time they leave school at 16/18.

I'm going to base my system on the Japanese model. Everyone in together until their about 15, then selective exams. Academic kids go to academic schools and focus on academics. But and this is really necessary- the alternatives are equally respected. I taught in an Agricultural high school in Japan (15-18). it was not at all academic- but very well respected. Within the school the students could specialise in things like food technology, animal husbandry, mechanics. And they had realy chickens, cows, pigs and horses! No it was great. They left at 18- all with jobs lined up. A few went onto University and they were given extra help for thier entrance exams.

Of course one thing the Japanese system has is great respect for teachers. It made a huge difference.

another suggestion, leading on from custardo's point that good education should be accessible to all.

How would it be if (before most private education was abolished) private school facilites and extra curricular activites were somehow made available to state school pupils? Facilties like indoor swimming pools and extensive libaries could be opened for state school use at given times. Sports coaching, french lessons, computer clubs, drama and music societies could be opened to state school pupils, too.

If all this was accessible for every child, parents might think twice about paying to go private and more children would have the chance to develop their talents.

Or am I being too idealistic?

Why doesn't GB just put this babybond money into education?

claireandrich, I like your view on more parental support for the small school rules, to make it easier for the bigger rules to be respected.
That makes sense to me.

So many of you teachers here complain about the amount of admin work you have to do and how much of your training was irrelevant for your job. I do hope this gets resolved for you. It must be so frustrating.

I also agree with those who say more behaviour units should be created in schools for difficult pupils.

There are so many things here being discussed, I can't keep track of them.

I can't help thinking that all these brilliant ideas need a wider audience. If we can come up with all these thoughts in just a couple of days, why on earth can't the movers and shakers of the educational world do the same? They just don't seem able think outside the box, do they? Maybe Mumsnet should send this thread to the education dept of the govt.....

Having worked in a school that has a behavioural unit - they really are not all they are cracked up to be... can cause a lot of problems with the 'good' kids....

Jim jams - is aus they do academic and non academic subjects and they do thinks like animal husbandry where the school has a farm - crops and animals... apprenctice landscaping or bricklaying and they leave school as second/third year apprentices... they do real projects within the school and out and about often for old people etc. It really is a good idea... seems to stem a lot of the problems I encountered here with students really not wanting to be in a class and would benefit from something much more practical.

Suedonim - I agree that the people who have some say need to see some suggestions. Our school is currently looking for ideas to improve after failing its OFSTED (mainly on pupil behaviour).

Woulkd anyone here mind if I pinched some of the ideas here for our school meeting coming up soon?

We are also getting a new electronic registration system after half term. This will allow school to keep tabs on attendance centrally for EVERY lesson - to check on after registration truancy. Also the system can be used to record punctuality, behaviour issues in the classroom, whether homework is done, etc. The system sends te ata to a central computer and generates letters home automatically, etc. Don't know much more about it yet. We have an INSET day coming up soon to tell us more.

eidsvold - could you tell us a bit more about the behavioural unit?

Ohh we had that claireandrich.. all staff had laptops/electronic registers and each lesson the register was taken - I could check up on my form class so much better which cut down some admin time.

we had a behavioural unit built in the comprehensive I was teaching in. The person in charge of the day to day running was about as useful as a crotch in a nightie.. The Deputy who was in charge - brilliant, the LSA's brilliant.... the kids however not..(which went without saying)

It was very visible (to the other children) that they were working to a different standard than the rest and it was very apparent that they were being excused when behaving inappropriately. Some of the children in the unit also seemed to have the attitude that they were untouchable by the staff who were not part of the unit - aides, teachers etc.

The other kids were very aware that these kids were getting to do 'fun' things and it was viewed that some of the students attending the behavioural unit were being 'rewarded' for doing the wrong thing.

To me the behavioural unit needed to be more about behaviour modification and skills - life skills and social skills than playing games on the computer, harrassing, spitting and throwing things at the builders working below, art work all day..... these children needed basic literacy and numeracy skills and they seemed to be going by the way.

HAVING SAID ALL THAT.... there is a new head of the behavioural unit who is in charge of the day to day running and perhaps over the last school year things have improved.

that is my limited experience of behavioural units - there may be others who have had more positive experiences.

That unit was in its first year and a lot of things were trial and error so as I said - things may be more effective.

I just remembered that as some student's improved their behaviour and skills - they were gradually eased back into the school - starting with subjects like English, Maths, Science and some practical subjects ( depending on the student) They were accompanied by a CSA and i think they were allowed back into classes with teacher consultation. I had a student in my english class - I remember now too if he was off the wall or having a particularly bad day - i would set the work and the CSA would take him back to the unit and complete the work there.

sorry been a while and I am trying to remember everything....

It sounds like the idea was good, but the implementation was bad? I agree with you 100% that those children need basic skills. Once they have those, and some degree of behaviour change, they can be re-integrated into the normal school. Without them disaster.

Instead of cleaning the house today, I worked out some numbers for the private school fee plan:

Average funding per student in 2001: 2588 GBP for primary school and 3313 GBP for secondary (numbers quoted by Ms Estelle Morris) note: this is the vast majority of the amount, but it is actually higher as it only includes the per pupil standard spending assessment and not other grants, which can vary by school. So the actual amount is a bit more.

Average amount LEAs take for administration and other expenses: 27% ( The Centre for Policy Studies )

Therefore, average amount schools get to spend per student: 2190 GBP for primary and approx 2420 GBP for secondary.

There are 8.4 million pupils in total, 7% of which are in independent schools. So there are approx 588,000 children in independent schools and 7.812 million in state school. (Department for Education and Skills statistic ).

Now, the tuition for schools ranges from 2500 GBP to 9000 GBP per term (numbers from Gabbitas ) and I'm not really sure how many terms are in a year (3? 4?), so will go with a figure of 7500 GBP per year on the low end and will be making my comparisons to that.

Putting it all together: if each independent school were required to pay 300 GBP (4% of the lowest end of tuition fees), it would immediately raise 176.4 million GBP. Now that's only 22.5 GBP per student, but it's a start. Each year, raise the per student payment by 200 GBP plus the annual rate of inflation (so if it's 2%, the increase would be 210 GBP.. ie total amount (300+200+500*0.02) with an aim to hit around 1000 GBP per student after 5 years. That's 75 GBP per year per student, which is 3.3% of total funding that primary schools receive per student and 3.0% of total funding that gets to the schools per secondary student pupil. Of course, that's assuming the attendance figures stay the same, which they wouldn't. (I'm getting a little tired now.....)

Anyway, that's the plan and an crude approximation of the numbers. I thought it was interesting, although I'm fairly certain I will have killed the discussion (my specialty ).

There is also the idea of revoking independent schools charitable status and using the money saved to fund state schools. And while looking stuff up I came across a proposal to make school tuition fees subject to VAT . The latter would make loads of money -- but, I think, for that very reason would be subject to intense criticism by the private school parents. My proposal is modest, but would make a difference and most parents whose kids are in an independent school would grumble, but it wouldn't be all that much money to them. What I mean is, it just might work.

So, I've got loads more to say but am getting kind of computered out.. . I'm all for radical change, but think it's very hard to affect. What ends up working many times are many small changes: Claireandrich's ideas, in particular, seem to be easily(ish) implementable and effective. And a lot of very good and fair ideas will be shot down by the wealthier people who don't want their standard of living lowered in any way shape or form. I've always thought that idealism is necessary to admit the status quo needs changing and compromise is necessary for change to happen.

And hmb, you're joking! Everyone who comes into the school to volunteer (eg, someone to read with the kids, a local artist to give a specialized art lesson, people coming in to talk about careers) has to be police checked? Even if they're not left alone with the kids (which I can understand wanting someone around at all times -- for discipline as well as safety issues)? Really? I'm speechless. (Finally!)

(just a note: the reason I'm including the money in the school actual funding per student is that I'm putting into the Devolved Standards Fund which goes directly to the schools. I've got to admit that I'm on shaky ground: my knowledge of the UK system is slight, at best.)

I would just turn the private schools into state schools - launch a takeover! Might do it one county at a time - although would suggest not London first - I can just see the collapse in housing prices and the boom in the home counties. Can't remember how the change from the grammar / secondary modern system to comprehensives was effected. (Before my time........??? )

jj, thanks for that interesting post.

so many thought provoking ideas here, not enough time (or expertise tbh!) to comment on them all, but jj's post has reminded me of something that has been nagging away at me for a few days.

with only 7% of the school population currently at independent schools, isn't it rather unrealistic to say that the current malaise in secondary education is due to the absence of these pupils? how could such a small proportion account for such a difference in performance?

which leads me on to the other thing that has been niggling away. jto's original post recommended abolishing "religious schools" in the same - virtual - breath as private and grammar schools.

just a couple of comments on this, as i think the issues are very different.

don't want to rehash the private v. state education debate re buying priviledge etc., so let's just say i understand the reasons that jto might have included abolishing private schools in the list of recommendations.

also, understand the arguments against grammar schools, e.g. selective entry, socially divisive, "pigeonholes" children too early, creates an "underclass" of low expectation and therefore achievement. so i understand why that one is there.

however, i think the issues are different with religious schools and i cringe whenever i hear these groups bracketed together, for the following reasons (must make it clear here that i'm speaking about catholic schools only, as those are what i know).

RC schools consistently perform well in league tables (let's set aside the deficiencies of league tables for the moment, that's a different argument), despite non-selective (in terms of academic ability) entry and an extremely diverse intake, both ethnically and socially. non fee-paying catholic schools (i.e. not the ampleforths, mayfields or downsides) are most emphatically not bastions of white, middle-class priviledge - yet they tend to do well (not without exception, but that is the trend).

i think the argument against these schools is that the state should not fund religious schools at all, and could be extended to say that there should be no religious component (e.g. assemblies) in secular schools either. also, why should certain schools supported by tax-payers be able to be exclusive in matters of religion.

i have a great deal of sympathy with the arguments against religious schools...

... but, but, but - surely there are lessons to be learned from this ethnically and socially mixed success story - which could then be applied to "ordinary" schools - before we rush to shout "abolish!"?

while i understand, and to some extent sympathise with, the arguments against religious schools, i think they are different in substance from the arguments against private education or grammar schools.

don't want to start a fight, i am very interested in, and accepting of different points of view (as long as constructively and courteously expressed )

the reason I put all schools in the same bracket is because I want all children to have the same opportunities.

You're right, lots of "religious" schools do have a special ethos and do well in league tables - obviously part of this is down to the teaching but I would say a large part is down to the parental involvement being higher.

If you have a "different and perhaps a little bit better" school in the area it is bound to have an effect on the demographics of the area and an adverse effect on the other schools.