Solving the crisis in state education

[judetheobscure]

Thought I'd start a new thread as the state vs private thread is soooo long; and wanted to focus more on possible solutions.

So, fwiw, here are some ideas (aimed at secondary level):

Abolish private schools
Abolish "religious" schools
Abolish grammar schools, foundation schools, CTCs (are they still called this) and any other form of "specialist" school.

Create across-the-board comprehensive system.

Insist on setting. No mixed-ability classes for academic subjects. Allow plenty of opportunity to move "up" and "down" the sets.

Have units within the schools for problem pupils. Remove them from classes as soon as they become disruptive.

Problem pupils who don't improve and who don't have parents that support the school to be sent to boarding schools. (Not necessarily boarding schools for disruptive pupils but normal boarding schools.)

Restrict higher education to top 20%(ish).
Bring back apprenticeships. (Where's a plumber when you need one).
Money saved on universities can go to restoring student grant and better funding for schools.

Train more teachers and train them better. Don't allow teacher training institutions to spend 90% of the course on educational debates and "gender issues" etc. Classroom management and subject specific skills are far more important.

Anything I've missed (tongue-in-cheek)

I even said that for some children mainstream schooling is ineffective or even harmful - I'm agreeing with you on that point!

Thanks for that link!! This is exactly what I was saying about faith schools being selective. Glad to have some backup with statistics for what I felt was pretty obvious.

Gaby Hinsliff, chief political correspondent
Sunday November 18, 2001
The Observer

Single-faith schools are creaming off wealthier pupils from the state system, according to new evidence casting fresh doubt over the government's planned expansion of religious schooling.
Official figures show that children at Church of England, Jewish and Sikh schools are significantly less likely to consume free school meals, granted to children of low-income parents.
Single-faith schools also had fewer children with statements of special educational needs, who need extra resources and may affect league table positions.
Critics are now warning that the planned new wave of faith schools will aggravate 'middle-class flight' within cities by skimming off 'easier' pupils, destabilising local comprehensives.
The figures also raise questions over whether better results at church schools - which sparked Downing Street's interest - are really due to religious ethos or to pupils' backgrounds.
'There is clear evidence here that they are creaming off pupils,' said Phil Willis, the Liberal Democrat education spokesman. 'I don't blame parents for wanting the best for their kids, but let's not put up this smokescreen of saying it's because of faith, when 92 per cent of Britons do not go to church.'
On average, 17.6 per cent of primary-age children get free school meals, the classic sign of a deprived background. That falls to 16.1 per cent in Roman Catholic schools, 11.5 per cent in Church of England schools, 5.6 per cent in Sikh schools and 4 per cent in Jewish schools. The trend for secondaries was similar, although Catholic secondaries were close to average.
However, an above-average 30 per cent of Muslim primary pupils - whose schools are often in inner cities with high ethnic-minority populations, and higher poverty rates - took free meals.
Anglican schools in particular chose students who would bolster academic records, said Graham Lane, education leader at the Local Government Association.
'Anywhere the governing body is choosing the students, they tend to reject those children that need extra resources,' he said.

Aloha, I was trying to say thati do think the current non-faith schools could be potentially harmful to my DD, and to my younger brother and sisters who are at R.C. primaries.

At the moment because there is no such thing (legally) as a secular school in the U.K. headteachers can interpret guidelines in their own way. Thus, supposedly non-faith primaries can have an overwhelmingly born-again christian spirit which conflicts with what I as a practising Catholic would teach my child at home.

My sister went (briefly) to a non-faith primary but because the emphasis in R.E. was on the Anglican view (as legally required) she was often told by the teacher that things she knew from going to mass and lityrgy were "wrong" which was confusing. There was no attempt to say that maybe some churches think bit differently etc..My sister is a perfectly normal kid, but after the teacher asked a question about "who goes to church", she and the 2 others who put their hands up were teased mercilessly. That doesn't happen in her current R.C. school (where the majority do not attend church regularly either).

Unless all state schools become secular then I think that Church schools have an important role. I also think it would be helpful if people remembered that their own experiences in faith schools (Slug?) are likely to be at least 20 years old and that things have moved on!

For what it's worth I had a brief stint as a policy advisor for the Lib-Dems and I disagreed with their rather short-sighted views on this then!

not so fast, aloha. the article points to a small discrepancy in catholic primary schools and says the rate in catholic secondary schools is "close to average". and surely the question in the moslem inner-city schools where the rate is c.30% is do these schools do better or worse than their secular counterparts despite the increased poverty?

I can't see that those numbers point to any notion of selection just that they reflect what we already know. People who are CoE tend on the whole to be white and British, white British people tend to be wealthier than the average. Hindu's tend to have a strong work ethic and also tend to be affected less by poverty.

Marialuisa - I do understand where you are coming from on these points - and I don't actually disapprove of faith schools as such. I am more than happy for whatever church to "adopt" a school and support it, and for the school to undertake to support the ethos of a particular religion. What I disapprove of is that the school (if it is VA, anyway) can set admissions criteria and thus discrimate amongst the local children by only taking children "of the faith". I accept that not ALL the schools do, but in any large urban area it does seem to be the case. Far better to say no thank you to the money that churches supply to these schools (which after all isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things) and make them admit children on an even basis with the rest of the LEA - with of course the understnding that this IS a Church supported school, and thus the teachings will be reflective of the faith to which it belongs - and if a person feels that they do not wish their child to be taught those things in that way then they should not send their child there.

It is difficult though - by far the best thing would be to find some way of equalising these schools, so that there is not such an extreme difference between faith and secular schools. This would prevent peolpe from "pretending" a devout faith in order to gain entry, which in turn would prevent these from being the over subscribed schools that have no room for local children because they are full of cildren whose parents started going to church last year with the intention of "dear little Millie" getting a place at a "better" school.

Although I do wonder that the reason that these schools might actually be better is simply because the type of parent who is going to give up their Sunday morning most weeks to go to Church, simply to get their child into their preferred school (as opposed to deep felt faith) tends to be a parent who is likely to be more supportive of their child's education, and it is the parenting that these children receive (on average) that makes the difference, not the school itself.

Granted Marialuisa it was a long time ago in a land far far away. But I've heard several similar stories from other Catholic educated people. My youngest sister is 15 years younger than me and we laugh at how the same prejudices are trotted out year on year. Remember the Catholic Church has only recently admitted that Gallelio was right.

Agree with Marina who has put the point I meant so much more eloquently. Of course by British culture I am including all faiths/denominations practised by all, Muslim, Hindu, etc etc.

Oakmaiden, I think you are exactly right, and it's a point I tried to make further down. That the kind of person who is dedicated/organised enough to pretend to be religious or to fake it enough to get to church every Sunday is not likely to live the kind of chaotic life that is the real problem for many children in education. And given the low proportion of churchgoers in society that must the case with a hell of a lot of parents of kids in church schools. Also, with Muslim & esp Hindu kids there is a family work ethic that is cultural that is the reason why they tend to how they get on so well in mainstream non-religious schools too. As Oakmaiden says, look at the parents, not just the school.

I still don't see why religion and education have to get mixed up at all. Still less why the church should be able to run schools with a discriminatory admissions policy yet still receive state funding. I think the Rev Blair has a lot to answer for on this one.

Also, nobody answered my point about suppose there was a state-funded school for Labour supporters only that vetted children on the grounds of their parents political affiliations. Would ANYONE think this reasonable or fair? If not, why support church schools which run on the same principle.

yawn......

marialuisa - I agree, I don't like the Born Again ethic that seems to be being pushed at my daughter in a state primary. I don't want any religion being pushed onto children in state schools but think it would require an amendment to the 1945 Education Act for that.

Also, I went to Catholic school and we used to be asked every Monday what the Gospel reading had been at mass the previous day as a check on who had been. This was secondary school. Juniors also involved putting your hand up in assembly if you had been to mass

Tigermoth - re the indoctrination thing and keeping/losing/rejecting your faith etc Very complicated I think. My logical rational mind tells me that I certainly have no belief in a god. However, I still feel as though I will go to hell for saying that, even though I don't believe in hell? Weird. So where has that feeling come from if not from indoctrination? I can't imagine many people who have been brought up in non-religious households have those feelings - and my parents weren't extremely devout. However, I still, in certain cirucmstances (discussions at work etc), call myself a catholic as a sign that I understand the references. And part of me (a very small part) feels a twinge of regret that my daughter won't go through it so that she can a) talk about it when she's older and have amusing memories of school and b) that the link to Catholicism will die out.

A bit off topic and political here - but kindof related. Hope no-one minds me pointing at this one, but has anyone else seen this? news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp?story=405181

Another stange case of Rev. Blair (good name, Aloha!) being too much influenced by the Church?

Aloha I think in my previous post I agreed with the essence of what you are saying about discrimination. Yes, of course, discrimination is discrimination, whatever grounds you are using.

Donnie, I find your opinions pretty tedious too,but didn't feel the need to be quite as rude as you - until now, that is.

Tinker, your daughter might decide to go to church etc for herself when she's older. My dd hasn't been christened but she's recently decided for herself that she wants to go to Sunday school and to be christened. So she is!
As for Rev. Blair, I think he really wants to be Fr. Blair from what I've read.

Aloha - you're doing a brilliant job - haven't yet found anything in your postings on this subject that I've disagreed with.

Have to say, that the only way there is going to be anything like the "equality of educational opportunity for all" that so many on the "private vs. state school" thread argued for, would be to make all schools equal in ethos. I don't think this would be possible if "single-faith" schools were allowed to continue.

Thanks Jude, I absolutely hate to be successfully goaded like that. I really shouldn't let childish jibes like that distract from the point at issue. It's only a refuge for those who have run out of idea, IMO.

tigermoth, hey! We nearly had something there, didn't we? Maybe? People listening, disagreeing, agreeing, discussing and all that? The middle sucks, doesn't it? I still think this is where it works!

Marialuisa, well, I would be horrified to find a loony head like that at any school my ds was at and would be round like a shot to have a 'word' with him and the governors. I think religion has no place in schools except as part of other subjects such as citizenship, history, literature etc etc.

I think we should all look in on Batters' daughter's school. Sounds like a good one to me, then come back here and discuss.

jj don't go under - here's a lifejacket - your views and links have been invaluable - look, I can see an island in the distance - just middle ground there, nothing else, honest. Out of the sea mists I can just see the vague outline of an educaton system. Lots of small community centred schools, each with a character of its own, yet all offering quality education, some more religious than others, but none of them discriminate in terms of admissions, all are funded by the state, and there are more than enough places to go round, so no one feels they have no choice. It's even rumoured that over that hill is a private school - very few people send their children there, but it's there for those who want it. However the state schools are so good and give pupils such a great start in life, few feel the need to consider it. Ahh....

Give us some special needs provision and
I'm there tigermoth

Of course, jimjims. How remiss of me to forget. Sorry.