private or state: how did you decide?

[marialuisa]

We're in the fortunate position of being able to pay for DD to go private, but we're really unsure whether we should.
Our local primary is dire but there is a strong possibility that DD would get into the neighbouring parish school (we're R.C.) At the moment this school has class sizes of 22, nice "feel", good academically etc. However a new housing estate on the way which will push up class numbers and reduce the chance of DD getting a place.

We have looked around and found that if we want DD to go private we should put her name down now for nursery class in January. Thing is I've not thought that any of the schools were particularly fantastic, indeed been quite horrified in some...

So, do we risk it and stick with the state system or put in the private nursery and perhaps move her if the state school is still ok when it's time for her to go there? An added pressure is that we live in a county with the 11+ and people tend to pay to make sure kids get into the grammars as the alternatives are not great!

So, sorry this is so long, but would like to know how other people decided....

This argument that people in private health and education are somehow saving our economy makes me laugh! I'll remember that next time I read an article about nurses and doctors deserting the NHS for the private sector!

There seems to be a fair few people on this thread who see private and public as a choice, an option open to everyone. Well it isn't! You might feel relieved that your child does not have to go to the failing school over the road, or be turned away from specialist treatment as it isn't available on the NHS - what a bonus for you and your family that you can afford to pay to send them private! So you've had to sell your car, miss out on holidays? Awww - shame! Open your eyes and look at the people who desperately need the same services but have no bloody option! No choices! What of the kids who also need specialist care, but are denied it? Or the bright pupils who end up attending failing schools and never get to make the most of their talent? Is this not a case of "I'm alright Jack"? If we, as parents, became more involved in not just our own children's future, but everyone's future, what a difference we could make! Oh but it's much better simply to complain about it and do nothing isn't it? There will always be excuses, after all why should you? Your kids are ok aren't they!

Well everything you say is true Rhubarb but say you won the lottery, had £2m in the bank and a child who like Jimjams, deperately needed help that the NHS was unwilling / unable to provide. Would you use your money to buy the service or would you let your child suffer on account of your principles?

No Rhubarb- my kid is far from OK

and OK is not a word i would use to describe my ds either..

And Rhubarb if you want to read more about why that idealistic crap makes me want to scream then read the latest in health care. I would love to receive NHS services- unfortunately they have written DS1 off. There are no services available for him- none. As his mother I refuse to write him off.

He may appeaer to doctors- and probably to many parents of normal children to be less than perfect- so lets not bother- he;s weird anyway after all. But I love him every bit as much as the rest of you love your perfectly normal children. I have hopes for him, just as you do for your normal children, unforunately the NHS doesn't.

In the meantime I will continue to pay for him, without guilt, whilst campaigning for better services, whilst setting up a local group to act as an information exchange so that parents can swap details about where to go for help. I wil be paying for BIBIC (from family donations) - those on low incomes can get it for free. The NHS are not telling them about that- I make sure the people I meet through the group do know that.

Private is not an option for us - financially. But I am starting to wonder if I am being naive. I have put DS's name at the local school (100m away) and am reasonably confident, given the admission criteria, that he will get a place. Its a village school and so I assumed it would be OK and thought the advantages of friends going there and being able to walk there would outweigh other schools being slightly better. Was looking at Key Stage 2 results but none of local primary school's were included because we have middle schools in this area. And what (having seen Scummymummy's thread) if he doesn't get a place. Should I have an insurance policy? Does no-one else think walking to school is a significant plus point?

No Mabs and Jimjams you know I didn't mean that as you took it! If my nephew went private he would have so much more treatment that the NHS don't provide for him, such as physio-therapy, play-therapy and so on, but for my sister, it isn't an option.

And yes, if I won the lottery I would pay for my dd to have treatment, if I didn't I would sell my body for it. But I wouldn't put her in private ed. However I would continue to campaign for a better service for all children, not just mine. Mabs and Jimjams, what would you have done could you not have afforded that private treatment? Because that is the reality that faces many families up and down the country. That is all I am trying to say, there is a whole different world out there to the one we live in, and we mustn't forget them.

But Rhubarb- that is the situation I am in. I can't afford the treatment DS1 needs- not the SALT anyway. He needs 5 times a week for at least 2 years- at 50 quid a time- no way! And whilst I do feel perfectly able to give general SALT (and have been for 2 years) I do not feel qualified to take on verbal dyspraxia. Your sister probably does the same as me which is buy/borrow books and try and do it herself. I've contacted people in the States begging for advice (which I find slightly ridiculous) I have paid for some SALT- in order to be shown how to do it at home- but tbh most of those ideas could have been found for free. In fact with the exception of the SALT- everything else we are paying for- BIBIC- urine tests at the autism research unit- are free for low income families. Trouble is no-one tells you about them.

A serious problem would be lack of internet access- but I can even point low income families with a disabled child towards a charity that will provide computers for free. Again social services aren't telling anyone about this. This is why I set up a website and local coffee mornings- there is help out there- but no-one tells you about it.

What is wrong with your nephew? BIBIC will see children from low income families for free.

Just because we can and do afford to pay for private health and education doesn't mean we don't care about those who can't. I for one give £500 a month through my GAYE to a range of childrens charities. Also I work a 70 hour week and pay a massive tax bill (which I don't resent). And if your local primary was the quality of mine, you might be tempted to sell your body to avoid sending your child to it also.

Rhubarb, I think that most, if not all , of the people who used private education do not think 'I'm allright, Jack'. I use private education of my children, but I am working in a state school and do my damndest to make sure that the kids I teach get the very best I can give them in my lesson. The difficulty is that there are a huge raft of problems that make it almost impossible to see that every child gets the best. I doesn't stop me trying, but it does stop me getting there. I know that my child would be disruptive in the local primary school, because I know their system, and it sucks. It is dreadful that other kids like dd have to put up with it. I wish that it wasn't the case, I work to try to make sure it isn't the case for the kids I teach. But I cannot sacrifice dds future. I'm not buying into the private system for snob reasons, for the uniform and the exclusivity. I'm doing it because the state system wasn't going to provide for her needs. In a similar way to the NHS failing Jimjams son (Meaning no disrespect to Jimjams in the matter of degree of short fall of provision, which I take on board).

Rhubarb - I also object to being told that I don't care about other people. If that was the case I wouldn't stick teaching in the school I do, where I am verbally abused on a daily basis, and have evn been physically abused whilst 7 months pregnant. If I didn't care about the education of children at my school (okay, maybe not the ones who cuase me so much grief or actually try to injure me as much) I would b out. I don't have to work. I choose to becuase I care about what I do. However, after my experience at this school I am just not prepared to risk putting my child in such an environment (and my local catchment school is not a good one at all). If you had seen the disruption caused in classes because of these children then you may undertsand. I know most people know that it happens but do they all really understand how bad it can be. And, please don't think that it is just me who has these problems. It is almost every teacher in my school, regardless of age or gender or experience. These children (and often their parents too) have no respect for us or even the head. I can't risk disturbing DD's education if I can help it.

If I had a chance of getting DD into a good school then I would - it'd save me money. But we don't. And the chances of affording a house on the better houses are unlikely in the near future. So, I choose to pay for a school rather than a dearer house. I don't see much difference, except that there is one less space being used in the state school for someone who needs it.

Jimjams, I take my hat off to you, it must be very frustrating for you. My nephew has Downs and I will tell my sister of the charity you mentioned. He is quite undeveloped but I think that has a lot to do with his 9 months in and out of hospital as well as his syndrome.

I also work in a state primary school where kids as young as 7 tell you to f**k off and the parents often threaten the staff and verbally abuse them. It is a running battle just to keep the kids in school! But the teachers are brilliant, they are firm and they care about what they do. I would have no hesitation sending dd there because I believe that if she has it in her to succeed, then no matter what the environment holds, she will succeed. They are also very good at spotting and dealing with bullying whereas other so-called "better" schools like to deny that there is even a bullying problem with their schools, so long as the OFSTED report is ok, the individual child can suffer! At least with a "failing" school they don't care as much about the OFSTED report, which gives them more time to concentrate on one-to-one care.

If you work in a state school but send your kids to go private, what message does that send out to the other parents? It's like Labour saying that state schools are fine, and then sending their kids to go private. You must see a lot of parents who do care about their children's education but are unable do do anything about it, what do you say to them? How many Mumsnetters have contributed to this debate so far? If every one of those contributors took an active role in supporting and trying to improve their local schools, just think of the potential difference that would make! Private schools simply highlight the difference between these schools, so that soon only the poorest of the poor will be attending state schools. It's almost like segregation. The schools are bound to get worse in that situation! Put a load of bad kids together and you have trouble, but if you mix those bad kids with some good kids you have hope.

I respect your choice Rhubarb and if you feel confident that this is the right decision for you then that is great. It's just I don't feel conifdent that my catchment school is best for my family. I only have secondary school experience for teaching and I know I am sending DD to rpimary first, but I am also looking futher into the future. I see good kids being disturbed and held back every day. The naughty kids take up som much of my time and the referral support to get them out of the class is lacking at my school, so I have no choice. I try my best for the good kids and have them in at lunch and after school to get them through their coursework, without the unwelcome sitractions but I shouldn't have to. And if these good kids were mine I'd be so annoyed that they are being held back and disturbed, and their education being damaged (however little or not). So, that's why I have made my choice. I just don't want to take the risk. As I said before, if there was a decent school for her near to me I'd go with it. There isn't so I can't unless I pay a fortune to move. But, is that really any better to paying anyway?

Rhubarb - meant to add.

I agree that some good kids will always do well regardless of where they are. But they may get stick for doing so, and made to feel abnormal for wanting to succeed. Sad, but true.

Also, what about the borderline children? Could do better if given the right environment. These are the ones who really suffer in schools like mine.

To answer Bozza's question - I think it is a huge 'plus' to be able to walk to school - less cars on the road and more fit kids would be fantastic ........ unfortunately we live in a very rural area so walking to school isn't an option - an excellent bus service is provided (free - dare I say that) ...... although some mums still get out their cars to drive their kids in which amazes me.

Rhubarb- let me know if you want need BIBIC's deatails. They offer a full 3 day assessment and then send you home with a programme of therapy to do at home. It's in Bridgwater, Somerset but they have an onsite bungalow which can be used by visiting families and is very cheap. They do provide bursaries (from part cost to full cost depending on need) for people without the money to pay. They are incredibly experienced, and positive (a attribute lacking in the health service unfortunately). I have a friend who went recently and came back singing their praises. I will post more after I have been- but I do have quite high hopes.

Actually I have their info here.

Website www.bibic.org.uk

Telephone 01278 684060

In brief

tallulah - 100% agreement (glad there's someone on the board I can say that to)

seahorse - my children (at state primary) have to wear shorts all year round - although admittedly we were not quizzed on our educational background

tigermoth - it is most definitely behaviour and parental attitude that is the major stumbling block to improving state education and NOT money.
I could give fantastic lessons all year round if all the pupils in the class behaved. I could give loads of child-centred attention to every member of the class if I wasn't spending 95% of my time controlling the disruptive ones. I would need very little in the way of resources to do this.

rhubarb - ban private schools if you like - but if there isn't a decent state school to send my children to I will home educate instead. I am not having all my values of respectful behaviour etc. etc. undermined.

not so sure that we CAN make a difference - fundamental changes in society need to take place.

poor parenting is at the heart of the decline in standards of education - and please don't get me wrong - I am not blaming the "poor parents" - they are as much "victims" as their children.

sorry, not brief at all

tigermoth - yes - the unsupportive parents break the school. That is where the value of a good head comes in - if the head can get the parents on their side then they stand a chance of winning the battle.

Judetheobscure - in total agreement, a head and parents attitude make or break a school whether private or not.

Bozza - I'm sure your village school will be fine - have you had a look round and met the headmaster yet? that normally settles things in your own mind.

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Lindy I'm glad you agree with me. I can appreciate that in an area like yours walking to school is not possible. But I walk DS to the playground next to the school already and he's only two.

Jude I have not yet looked around the school because DS is only 2y2m so it seems a bit early. At what stage should I do this? Its just I like to worry about things early!

Also should I apply to other schools just in case he doesn't get in?

Claireandrich - I think Rhubarb has made it clear that for her it is not a "choice" regarding her DD's education.

i think there are ( at least) two arguments getting mixed up here one argument is about principle - in principle alone you should not be able to give your child a higher standard of education than i can give my child - becuase you are richer than me. being richer doesnt mean you have worked harder than i have. and as i said on the private health care thread - if the people with power ( who are usually those who have shed loads of money) had no choice but to send their children to state schools - there would be major reforms or someones Party fund would go down a few million come election time.

the other argument is reality and solving the problem. society is set up so we have to fight - for jobs, for benefits, for healthcare, for schools for school places. its the way it is.
not a lot of us make choices on principle anymore so if my state school was good and i sent my kids there i could stick with my principles and tell myself that, however if it wasnt, am sure i would move, feign religeon, beg borow steal to get my kids the best education through trying the best that i can.

it is a problem that is wider than schools it is society and its divisions. its culture and sub culture, crime, drugs, hope, and quality of life, community and community values, shame or lack of, pride or lack of. no matter what class i remember being taught to scrub your doorstep and paint it keep it looking nice. wash your windows put clean stiffened nets at the window and freshly paint your front door becuase then your "neighbours" wouldnt think the wost of you and they dont know whats inside.

where has this gone? not a lot of people care what their neighbours think, and would tell them to sod off if they stuck their noses in

on principle though, your child shoulnt get a better education than mine becuase you have money and i dont.

just to pick up on the labling - do not assume that becuase some schools which are disruptive have majority of parents from poor backgrounds. and for those that do it doesnt mean that those parents do not care.. like everything else it is the minority.

OK, if people who have experience teaching in schools, like you, hmb and judetheobcsure, say it's the parent's attitude that is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to good teaching then I will agree. I have no direct experience of teaching so how can I do anything else?

However, surely money can help solve this behaviour problem? Don't you think underfunding is the problem? Wouldn't it help you to teach 20 not 30 pupils in a class? Or have more schools catering for the most disruptive children? If schools had the resources to employ more teachers, and teachers were paid handsomly to stay in their jobs, surely things would improve for you all? It seems to me that parents blame the teachers, teachers blame the parents when in the end it's a lack of money leading to the lack of sufficient teachers and suitable schools that makes the bad behavour of pupils so intolerable.

I have teacher friends and often hear them saying how awful the parents of their pupils are, how they don't back up discipline etc. I know from them it's a problem.

Speaking personally, I have a son who can be disruptive in class. I am well aware how much of his teacher's time and effort is spent on his behaviour issues. I know my son is not a hardened case - he doesn't punch teachers, try to set fire to the building etc - but he takes up his teacher's time none the less. Yet I am a supportive parent. I support the school, I support the teacher. I make sure my son does his homework, I get him involved in extra curricular activites, I fill in his behavior book every day, I back up any school discipline sanctions at home, I attend parent teacher meetings, etc - I really don't think there is much more I can do. Yet my attitude as a parent does not make my son behave well for his teacher. It might help a bit but that's all. Surely what would help her more would be smaller class sizes, extra staff, etc and doesn't that boil down to more money from the government?

Not sure that class numbers are the problem. I taught in several (state) schools in Japan. One was very well thought of - not academic at all- the students left at 18 to become bus drivers and tour guides- but still very well thought of. Absoutely no problem in a class of 40. Another- well I have never seen anything like it. I had to remove cards- as they were playing card games in class "this is to confiscate- you will learn an NEglish word- to confiscate" etc etc. The boys used to put pin -up's up during class- they used to spend ages combing their hair (tough in Japan).

Mind you I did eventually find a way to make them concentrate. 1) teach them animal noises in English (they were 18) and 2) give them word searches to do. Peace- and a whole class interested.

No seriously not sure reduction in class sizes really makes as much of a difference as is credited.

And the biggest difference between those 2 schools? The attitude of the head- which is the same as I have found regarding my son. Good attitude from head and he will get a good deal. Bad attitude- forget it!