private or state: how did you decide?

[marialuisa]

We're in the fortunate position of being able to pay for DD to go private, but we're really unsure whether we should.
Our local primary is dire but there is a strong possibility that DD would get into the neighbouring parish school (we're R.C.) At the moment this school has class sizes of 22, nice "feel", good academically etc. However a new housing estate on the way which will push up class numbers and reduce the chance of DD getting a place.

We have looked around and found that if we want DD to go private we should put her name down now for nursery class in January. Thing is I've not thought that any of the schools were particularly fantastic, indeed been quite horrified in some...

So, do we risk it and stick with the state system or put in the private nursery and perhaps move her if the state school is still ok when it's time for her to go there? An added pressure is that we live in a county with the 11+ and people tend to pay to make sure kids get into the grammars as the alternatives are not great!

So, sorry this is so long, but would like to know how other people decided....

scummymummy what are you doing posting at 3 am. what gives in the house of scum? inthe house of bubbles sleep is sacred. So much so that my dd1 begged me to give it up for lent.

Here here Badmamma!!!! Nicely summarised!

Badmamma, somewhat misleading as Ofsted only has responsibility for inspecting the 1,200 fee paying schools that are not members of the Independent Schools Council (I think the ISC accounts for around 85% of the overall independent sector). These schools are mostly small preparatory and proprietory schools and are not representative of the overall sector.

Marialuisa, don't be frightened off by this. This is the way Mumsnet seems to work... a perfectly innocent thread will take wing and heatedly fly off in another direction

In answer to your original question, I think you have to place your daughter where you think she will be most happy. It's partly gut feeling - yougo and look at all the options and you'll probably get a feeling about which one is right for your child.

It must be reassuring, SueW, that the education in Switzerland is good. We don't even have that option, as only Indonesian citizens are allowed to attend state schools. As Indonesia doesn't have enough school places for their own people, (only about half of 14yrs-up get a place at high school) I can't argue with that, tbh. Having said which...I do know of one British child who goes to a local school. He has learning difficulties, dyslexia etc. The International schools refused to take him, so his parents managed to get him into a local school instead, where he is doing well. Fortunately, they are here long-term, so he speaks the language and can mix with the local children.

7yo DD would love to attend the school in the kampung out the back of us - they have a pink and white uniform, for boys as well as girls!!

SueW, the children I used to look after went to live in Switzerland 18 months ago. The parents put their son into a german primary school (they live in Basle) at the age of 7, when all new swiss child start at school. He then learned to read and write in german alongside all the new children so felt no different. He was fluent in german in less than a year. he only goes mornings and one afternoon for sport or activities.

Little sister went to playgroup three mornings and is now at 5 going to kindergarten 5 mornings. She is fluent in swiss german and has a fantastic environment. The kindergarten is allocated to you by the town hall, you have no say in it!

They are both having a curriculum far superior to our NC, they go out on visits to dams, power stations etc for science, walks in the woods and make lunch on camp fires, fly kites etc, but they alos do projects and learn to talk to the calss about them using key cards to help.

They do not use computers at all, they have no place in the curriculum.

By contrast another friends children have gone to the international school, they are there all day, and they are not so happy despite being able to speak English all the time. They have a very restrictive timetable and they don't seem to have half the fun my minded two do.

My ex minded two stayed this weekend with me and they just love living in Switzereland and they love school and kindergarten, the adjustment took a while as they had me looking after them for 7 years Mon-Fri 8-6., so they lost that as well as leaving their home and friends.

I visit them regularly and they always come and stay when the parents are in the UK (the parents don't!)

I think it is a great expereince for them, they love going shopping with mum as she doesn't speak much german yet, plus teachers get the children to translate at parents evenings for them!

Scummy, I still love you, even though you think I'm morally corrupt. I blame the govt. myself

OK, just read through all these postings since yesterday afternoon. Will someone pay me for this, that's a job in itself?

A suggestion: how would the 'panel' feel if all those who opt for private education - and arguably church schools (include me here) - have to pay the state a yearly fee for opting out of state education? This money goes towards state schools, so parents of all privately educated children end up subsidising state schools - a fine, if you like, for being lucky enough to exercise freedom of choice.

Secondly, I find it odd that there have been so few mentions of the recent furure over university entrance criteria, apart from Oxbridge entrance. One way of getting over the privilege barrier, surely, is to accept lower A level grades from those who have attended 'bad' schools? Isn't it feasible that every private and state school should be graded according to pupil achievement? This would benefit 'poor' private schools as much as 'poor' state schools. So when pupils come to apply for any college course or job training, their academic acheivement is put firmly in the context of the school they attended. (I know something like this is already in place re stating the the level of improvement in pupils from the time the enter till the time they leave a school). Perhaps this needs to be taken further.

I think pupils should be judged on their own merits and this seen relative to the school they attend. Just because Parent 'a' has sacrificed holidays abroad to send their child to a private school while parent 'b' has been living it up while their child is at the local comp is beside the point. If you as a parent want to pay for an education - fine. Your reward is seeing your child happy and fulfilled at school. But not expecting your child, on leaving that school, to then have a head start over others.

I don't think you will ever get equally good schools for all - I'd like to think this, but don't think it can ever happen. That's because I believe each school has its own character, made up of the individual teachers, pupils, families, as well as the area it serves.

Hopefully the 'bad' schools can get a lot better though, with properly paid and less stressed teachers, if the right governmnet decisions are made.

What is easier to strive for IMHO is equality of opportunity with any child leaving any school given every chance to follow their ambition.

Hear hear Scummy.

batters- exactly exactly exactly. It's all very well having principals- but explain that to your child when they suffer grave consequences becuase of those.

Now let me see.... My son has one word that can be understood by stranger some of the time (dudye- for bye bye). Should I pay for speech therapy or should I not bother as the NHS has decided he isn't worth treating. Hmmmmm tricky decision that one.

You can extend the argument (and I think others have) to education.

Using private health care is a privilege: you jump queues, get more comfortable treatment, can ignore underfunded NHS etc. But it is a largely fleeting client experience.

Education is a much bigger issue. The school is the centre of your child's life. And yours too in the people it puts you into contact with, the other mothers, the teachers, the kids who come for tea.

If you go private at primary level from the age of five, your children - and you - will mostly only have contact with people of privilege. You will be far less engaged with the world you live in, bumped up as you are to a Club Class life. You will be able to say of the education system from which every other social problem stems "it isn t my problem."

I could afford to send my kids to the best private schools in London, but I don t because I want to be part of the very mixed area in which I live. And I want that for my kids too.

Maybe these mums who say they only work so hard to put their kids thru private schools should work less hard and be around more to help their kids through any shortcomings they find in the state system.

Scummy - I still love you and, even though I disagree, your post was extremely well written and concise, we'll just have to disagree on this and the health one xx

Using private healthcare is still elitist, it's still "one rule for us and one for them", it still means that one child gets better opportunities because their parents can pay, in some cases it can be the difference between life and death... How is that any less "wrong" than paying for private education?

And as Jimjams amply demonstrates, it is not necessarily a "fleeting client experience". Badmamma you seem amazingly judgemental (re your comment on mothers working hard) for someone who is so keen on breaking down barriers.

Here here Badmamma.

Healthcare and education are different - as Badmamma so eloquently summed up.

As we learn more, develop more, discover more "disorders" the remit of healthcare needs ever expands. Not everything can be treated by the NHS - at the end of the day the equation comes down to limited resources, unlimited demands.

As such it would be madness to refuse people treatment just because it could not be provided by the NHS ie: IVF treatment.

well said Scrummymummy

Soup dragon: I completely agree with you, private health care sucks! But I think that private education is the source of the problem of two tier society, private health care is a by-product of it.

Croppy: judgemental, moi? I m just responding to all the "we don t have nice holidays, or new cars and we work so hard to pay school fees" violin playing of other people on the board. I have absolutely no problem with working mothers.

Badmamma

Daren't get involved but...

Interesting to see neither rhubarb's state education nor tillymummy's private education taught them to apostrophise correctly (not getting at either of you, I promise ).

The one thing that no-one seems to have mentioned is that an area with poor state education suffers in many ways - lower employment levels, higher crime etc. - to the extent that regardless of where we choose to send our own children, we should be working hard to improve the state schools on our doorsteps.

Here are some practical ways you can do it:

• teach there
• become a governor (write to your LEA, they are almost all crying out for new LEA governors)
• volunteer to help out - could be in the classroom, on a trip, doing a website, etc
• go to the mother & toddler's group (or form one) and/or the evening classes held there (all income, albeit small)
• watch out for book sales/bring & buys etc, donate and buy things. Call the school secretary to find out when the next one is
• give them money as you would a charity
• buy your order at Amazon, WHSmiths, figleaves etc via www.go-help.com and a small percent of your order will go to the charity/school of your choice

badmamma, how would you feel, then, if those who opt for private education pay extra to the government (over and above taxes) as compensation for opting out of the state system? Only an idea I hasten to add.

I don t think you can put a price on middle class families withdrawing from the communities in which they live by choosing private education.

A fabulous idea Tigermoth!

Private healthcare is a by product of the state of the NHS, nothing to do with private education causing a two tier society!

They are 2 completely separate things. They are both elitist etc but one is not a by product of the other.