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Original poster

faith schools

44 replies

Greatfun · 27/04/2009 20:14

My DD starts reception next year so we have to apply by the end of this year. Our 2 nearest schools are catholic. We are not.

So, I phone them today and they both told me we would have no chance of getting in even though one is 300m from my house. The reason? They prioritise catholics first and are always oversubscribed by catholics.
As I understand it 90% of their funding is from the tax payer so why exactly are they allowed to select?

Their results are very good and with good reason. Both schools require regular church attendance for 2 years prior to applying to the schools. I know many people playing the system who by luck (for them) have been bought up as catholic and reignite their relegious affiliation just in time for the 2 year clock to start ticking. Who is most likely to do this? Admittedly a generalisation but in my opinion, it would be the middle classes with their aspirations and desires for their children to do well. So the schools are effectively filtering in the middle classes who tend to do better in schools anyway from the very start.

Meanwhile my child and all the others who by birth or due to the fact their parents will not or cannot play the game,have to walk past the gates of these exclusive but publicly funded schools to go to the schools that are out of their immediate area and neighbourhood or are second best.

Oh and don't forget. Whilst walking past the school gate in question we will be breathing in the car fumes from all the cars that have had to travel especially to the school as they don't actually live any where near it.

OP posts:
zanzibarmum · 27/04/2009 21:42

Sorry I am not sure I understand. You want your child to go there because it has good results but you decry the Catholicity criteria which you claim results in a middle class intake. Are you objecting to Catholic schools in general (90 per cent state funded), the fact that it prioritises Catholics or just that this particular school appear to have a middle class Catholic intake.

TheFallenMadonna · 27/04/2009 21:46

IME the middle classes are not over-represented among catholics.

But I do agree that faith schools are problematic with regards choice.

LynetteScavo · 27/04/2009 21:51

It's still worth putting them down on your list of school choices though. You never know.....

I don't really agree with havng any faith state schools, and can understand your frustration, but it seems faith schools are here to stay. (Yes DS1 is driven to and from his Catholic school every day)

It seems odd to have 2 Catholic schools so close....will you really be walking your DC to school?

LynetteScavo · 27/04/2009 21:55

I agree with TheFallenMadonna, the middle classes are much more prevalent in DS2's non faith state school, than DS1's Catholic school. Maybe something to do with 30% of chldren in DS1s catholic school being Polish/Easten European

TheFallenMadonna · 27/04/2009 21:57

Where do you live btw? That's a lot of catholics...

merlinthehappypig · 27/04/2009 22:03

My dd is in reception and didn't get a place at our catchment school, a C of E school 240 metres away. So I have to drive her to the school that she was allocated and am passing mothers driving their children to the C of E school. I am still really angry that I cannot walk my child to school (it takes 2 mins to walk to my catchment school).

That really pisses me off.

Rebeccaj · 27/04/2009 22:06

If I wasn't religious, there is no way I would want my kids going to a religous school anyway, regardless of results. I am not having my kids taught about god etc as "truth", which is what would happen at a Catholic school. TBH I would say 2 years regular attendance at a catholic church is quite a commitment as well.

What are the other schools near you like?

NettoFabulous · 27/04/2009 22:08

Zanzibarmum - I think she wants her child to go there because they are her nearest schools! And her council tax pays for them.

It may well be that catholics are not primarily middle-class (and it isn't only middle-class people who care about the education of their children!). The factor which enables faith schools (not just catholic) to be selective is the attendance at mass / church. This automatically precludes the children who have chaotic or disorganised parents, those who live disjointed lives with parents who cannot get anywhere on time. These are also the parents least able to support their child's education. This '2 year attendance' selection criteria precludes refugees and asylum seekers, often feared by middle class parents as likely to bring down standards.

Faith schools are funded by local authorities to the same level as community schools. Of course it is wrong that as state funded institutions they refuse to admit local children - and may prioritise children fom other boroughs.

Someone (a Christian leader)said recently "you can have a Christian school or school for Christians, but it can't be both".

Write to your MP.

TheFallenMadonna · 27/04/2009 22:22

My pint re middle classes was in response to the OP btw. That was where the assertion about middle classes and educational aspirations was made.

zanzibarmum · 27/04/2009 22:23

I think she wants to go there because it has good results not because it is near. Who wouldn't.

If there is one thing to bring out the hypocrisy in all of us it is schools. Catholic schools are Volunatry Aided schools just like a host of other non religious VA schools. Just because your chances of getting in are small donkt destroy something that seems to work. Thatks like the person attacking independent school because they can't afford the fees or GS because my kid can't jump through exams which require tutoring for 1 year plus. Truth is the whole system is a mess but for the bits that work why not leave them.

LynetteScavo · 27/04/2009 22:27

Anyone who takes a 2 year old to mass deserves an award, let alone going regualrly for two years. Thats 100 hours of mass with a toddler. Any one not really religous who manages that deserves to send their child to an school they like IMO.

I think alot of people do stop going to church between leaving home and having thier own children. Catholic schools seem to do a lot for keeping people Catholic. (It's worked on my DH - he han't been to mass for years, untill we decided to send DS1 to a Catholic school; all of a sudden our 3 DC's were baptised, and he regularly attends church.)

None of the CofE schools around here seem reotely interested in whether pupils are CofE or not - except the high school, but lots of non Cof E children still get in.

I have the same bug bear as the OP about grammar schools. People apply form far and wide to get into the girls and boys grammar schools, both of which are in walking distance from us. If my DC's don't obtian a place, I will bus them to a Catholic school 12 miles away. So many children traveling by bus/car to school...it's just ridiculous.

LynetteScavo · 27/04/2009 22:29

And I bet parents of the children who live next to that school but aren't offered a place are annoyed to see bus loads of Catholic children being ariving from far and wide each morning.

pointydog · 27/04/2009 22:31

I agree that faith schools shouldn't be state funded. A state-funded school should be open to anyone, the only restriction being capacity.

ellingwoman · 27/04/2009 22:36

Or, if they need the state funds to survive then that percentage of state funding should reflect the same percentage of non-catholics that have to be admitted.

(If that makes sense )

Concordia · 27/04/2009 22:41

Round here there is a shortage of school places, some very poor schools, and the catholic schools are always high up in the league tables with good reputations.
I think it is really unfair that nominal catholics can get their kids into a decent school when the rest of us can't. Don't get me wrong, i'm sure there are a few people who are really devout etc etc and want the religious input. The rest just want the good school, managed to get their kids baptised and had a lucky birthright. I don't blame them, i'd do the same, but it doesn't make it fair.
I get really angry thinking about it
Getting rid of faith schools would definitely make the education lottery fairer. Or, if not, why are catholics the privleged exception. I'm not a Muslim but i'm sure there are more Muslims than Catholics round here and some would probably appreciate their children being taught from an Islamic viewpoint and don't have the opportunity.
Rant over.. I don't dislike catholics, just the sytem that favours them.

pointydog · 27/04/2009 22:43

yes, the system is unfair

zanzibarmum · 27/04/2009 22:45

Catholic schools and the training of teachers existed long before state education services. Nationally something like 30 per cent of pupils in Catholic schools are non Catholic. It's only where there is over subscription from Catholics in particular schools that prority is given to Catholics. That is not unreasonable.

foxytocin · 27/04/2009 22:45

a significant % of non Catholics enter Catholic schools which are part funded by the Gov't.

don't you know that? so, some non Catholics in your area may get in but not all of them who will apply. you may be one of the lucky ones, you may not.

You say MC and you say Catholics. Surely not all the Catholics who get into this school are MC (whatever that is defined as) unless you live in a particularly wealthy part of the UK which doesn't have poor ones for over a mile in radius.

I think this thread is all a windup anyway.

but it is useful to bring out these insights to the less informed who happen to wander in.

LynetteScavo · 27/04/2009 22:49

Maybe Caholic schools get such good results becuase Catholics are more intelligent?

Plonker · 27/04/2009 22:51

I totally get your frustration as it is your local school, but if you're not a Catholic, would you be truly happy with your child going to that school and learning all about the Catholic way?

...or would we have more AIBU threads about how you disagree with your child being taught Catholic values??

I don't understand anyone who does not want their child raised as Catholics wanting their child to go to a Catholic school. Local or not.

JMO

Concordia · 27/04/2009 22:55

But where schools are overscubscribed and weak, only catholics will get in to a good catholic school (as in my local area) and the rest of us are left with the worse schools. That is unfair.
I don't understand the class issue either, didn't think Catholics were particuarly middle class.
It's about access to good schools.
Our local catholic church may be closing due to lack of support. the school a mile and a half from it doesn't seem to have the same problem.

Concordia · 27/04/2009 22:57

I wouldn't mind my child being taught catholic values.
Secular schools have their own value system which i may or may not agree with too.
I should teach my DS and DD to question what they are taught, weight things up and come to their own conclusions.

TheFallenMadonna · 27/04/2009 22:59

Why are the catholic school the good schools?

LynetteScavo · 27/04/2009 23:02

The Catholic High School in our town was so bad nobody (well, hardly anybody) wanted to send thier child there, and so it closed.

zanzibarmum · 27/04/2009 23:03

And don't believe the myth that all catholics are middle class. Catholics are typically immigrant communities: irish, polish, italian, african, phillipines etc - all very strong in London. Catholic working class people are not 'disorganised'.in addition, travellers in the UK tend to be catholic and these families children also qualify for places in Catholic schools.
As others have said the curriclum in Catholic schools involves teaching of Catholic doctrine and Christian values This binds what is a diverse community together perhaps in a way that other state schools somehow have not found a language or value to do the same amongst their cohort of pupils.