The value of education in the UK

[spokette]

I was watching Newsnight Review last night and I actually agreed wholeheartedly with something that Michael Portillo said!

They were reviewing the Venezuelan Youth Orchestra and the question was asked about its origins and why something like that could not happen in the UK. The orchestra provides a route to help poor and at risk youths to channel their energies and focus into classical music and their musical abilities are just simply inspirational.

During the discussion, Portillo said that in most parts of the world, education is seen as a means of escaping poverty and providing one with opportunities to better themselves. In the UK, there is a significant section of society who do not see the value in receiving an education and so that is why educational achievement in some areas is really poor. I actually agreed with him on that. As the daughter of immigrants, it never fails to perplex me why parents like mine used the opportunities this country provided and ended up with their own house whereas generations of indigenous folk have not achieved a fraction of what my parents did despite having the childhood advantages that my parents did not have.

I would say though, that access to the things that make life good - music, decent food, community life - have been made incredibly difficult to access for people without much money.

Especially if you are housed on the outskirts of a city. If you don't have a car, your food options are severely limited, for example.

Do you all think that people's lack of aspiration is due to some kind of weakness in character or social malaise?

I think the gap between rich and poor has widened to such an extent that the things many middle class people take for granted- a reasonable job, holidays, making music - seem an impossibility for them.

The X Factor, however, is true democracy!

Doesn't it come down to the English class system? The entrenched belief that your class is set from birth so for many people there's no point in trying to achieve academically? Plus in many communities it would be regarded as betraying your roots to try to 'better' yourself.

Same thing has happened historically in other parts of the world along racial (skin tone) lines -- continues today along ethnic lines world over.

No it doesnt lljkk I am from good working class stock, despite everything going against me I educated myself as did my partner who comes from very similar routes. My education provided my excape from poverty and I became a teacher, hardly the actions of someone who because her of class does not value eduction.

Well I am the daughter of Jamaican immigrants who had nothing and hence why they responded to the clarion call by Britain to come and help rebuild the mother nation.

Despite the racism, shouts of "go back to the jungle where you come from" etc, my parents did the low paid, unskilled work that the British refused to do (but still accused them of taking their jobs) and eventually bought a large 4 bed, 3 reception Victorian house which is on 4 levels. My widowed mother is still there now.

They sent me and my brothers to the local state schools and at my comprehensive, I passed all my O and A levels, went to university and left with a PHD in chemistry. I now have a wonderful career, am highly paid and have a lifestyle which I enjoy.

My DH is white British and from a poor working class background (mining town). Similar educational path like me, achieved PhD and is now working as a director. His sister also has a PhD and is currently doing research at Harvard University in Boston, USA. All my brothers are vocationally trained and have never been out of employment.

We have achieved all this despite going to schools to which most Mumnetters would refuse to send their own off-spring. Our parents instilled in us the importance of education, hardwork and committing to seeing something through to the end. I fear it is these qualities that is sadly missing amongst many of those who eschew education because they are only interested in doing things that require minimal effort and yield immediate results.

I think that maybe it is all to do with personality. The middle class has grown because people have valued education and driven themselves. My great grandfather was a labourer-where ever he could get work, either agricultural or on the railways, but in his spare time he read the classics. He made sure that his DCs did better than him and in turn they did the same. On the other side my great grandfather was orphaned at 7yrs, from a poor background -he was sent to a school for the sons of orphaned soldiers. I expect it was a hard life but he used it to work his way up in the army.
In every case a lot of doors were shut to them, but they used opportunities that came their way to better themselves. I would imagine that it was a struggle-I expect that different personalities would rather take an easy way or they just don't see the point. They take a defeatist attitude and pass it onto their DCs.

Tbh I think this problem goes right across the classes. Work ethic for the most part seems to have disappeared in schools. Working in one for five years led me to believe one fact and that's humans are by nature very lazy creatures. I have worked with well over 1000 children and I can count on two hands those with any drive. Harsh but true.
I think another problem is is children now expect to be constantly entertained and have lost the ability to entertain themselves hence the perpetual whinge of 'I'm bored.'
I think piscesmoon has a point it is to do with personality. I was always told as a child it takes a boring person to be bored and if you want anything worth having in this life you have to work for it yourself. The other lesson I learnt early on was life is simply not fair - your job is to make the best of it. I currently work as a nanny and I imagine I would be fired if I suggested that life wasn't fair to my charges when they whinge, which is all the time. I think modern childhood is at fault - not just the education system. That is just a symptom of a bigger disease.

i grew up in a scheme.we scraped by financially but my parents instilled value of education into me.i gain personal self worth and affirmation from education.i love studying,reading.

suppose it begins with expectations,and priorities.valuing education as a way to propel ones self forward

that is why good visionary teachers who can motivate and believe in working class children are so important.As unfortunately some children have no positive role model and lack driven adults to encourage them

however.i had some teachers who thought we were scheme scum who would inevitability claim benefits and their jaded views permeated their teaching and attitudes toward us

rather than completely victim blame,we need visionary inspire teachers to motivate and empower

i loved the michelle obabma sentiments

I think that modern childhood has always been the fault - but through time childhood has changed and we still think that we as children had it harder than our children just like our forfathers and mothers did before.

I can remember my great granny telling me that her mother had told her she had it easy - she was born in 1879 and her mother thought it was easy then!

some people want to learn and savour learning - I dont see that learning and earning are or should be always put together. learning is not about how hard you work at a job or your work ethic, they are different.

You can have a labourer who works 12 hours a day and works 7 days a week and works really hard for the boss - this doesn't mean that he wants to learn or has any interest in books or reading or writing.

why should he "better" himself if he is actually happy with how his life is? Perhpas he was offered an education and didn't enjoy it or want to learn about those things - or perhaps the way that the education was offered and given to him didn't suit, maybe somepeople are better with their hands and would be kinder to let them learn about wood and capentry or plumbing than force them to a academic education.

I agree with both Tavvy and Piscesmoon. I work in a high tech organisation and some of the younger employees (Oxbridge and red brick university graduates) expect to be on the same salary and grade as more established employees without actully doing anything to demonstrate their competency or value to the organisation. They don't seem to realise that to receive the rewards, you have to earn it. So yes, the lack of work ethic or self-motivation is classless and symptomatic of personality types.

I personally think that rising prosperity in the UK has led to expectations of entitlement by right rather than by effort and this entitlement malaise permeates all strands of society. Just look at the farce over MP's expenses. Some of the MPs think that just because it is there, it should be exploited to maximise their income. Similarly with respect to sick leave. Some employees see sick leave as part of their leave entitlement so now some organisations offer Duvet days which imo, is utter nonsense because it just reinforces the view that you can get something for nothing.

Ivykaty44

Education is not just about imbibing academic facts though. It encompasses all facets of life. My DTS could recognise an Eurasian Coot by the time they were 3yo and now they can point out a birch or horsechesnut tree.

Education should provide for non-academic as well as the academic types but it does not happen only in the classroom.

When one starts learning, your mind opens up and that process of discovery can encompass so many different elements of life, not just the academic bits.

I don't think the lack of value placed on education is the main reason for the social immobility we now see. My father is in his 60s and was brought up on a new council estate where everybody worked. He lived on a street where there were lots of boys his age. All of them have grown up to by high achievers in their field; a property multi- millionaire, a businessman, an Olympian and businessman, and a politician. All from the same street on a council estate. From the street around the corner came an Oscar winning film worker.

The common factor is that they were all brought up in homes where everybody worked and had strong role-models. My father talks with fondness about the youth club they all went to. It ran lots of courses (where the Oscar winner first tried out camera work) and seems to have been a remarkable place. It existed in some form when I was growing up but had turned into one of those places where the teenagers decide what to do and it was essentially a pub with no beer.

They all had a strong work ethic, but even then, as a product of a secondary modern, no real educational aspirations. My father, in particular, I think could have achieved far more educationally than a school leaving certificate at 15.

I don't know what the answer is, and I certainly agree that generally, education is not seen as a route out of poverty. Sadly, I think for many people stuck in the poverty trap, they don't see a way out of it and that is something that we should be trying to solve.

The whole world is a classroom and everything in it has a lesson to teach. However what you learn is entuirely up to you.

Agree with Spokette - education is about so much more than achievement. I never cease to be amazed when I'm out and about with the children I look after at just how little they know about anything because nobody talks to them. School and the classroom is just one part of education

yes I agree learning is a way of opening up the mind and enjoying new things - that to me is very different from school and the education system.

I certainly wasn't taught about birds at school, that was something for my dad to tutoir me in if he wished or for me to learn as I had been taught to read I could get a bird book from the library.

But learning and education seems to be slamed together with getting a "better" job and work rather than learning for the sheer joy of learning and experiancing new things.

linking education and employment is no bad thing.employment is good for mental and physical health and enhances social outcomes

yes education is a broad holistic experience not solely linked to employment,but education can provide leverage towards obtaining employment

those who have pursued higher education are paid more than those who have not.yes I know there are those who didn't pursue higher education and do alright.however,overall educational attainment equals higher wage

linking education and employment is not a bad thing - but if you keep putting them together and never mention other reasons to learn then a child will grow up and think that being educated is all about getting a better job.

I have been to parents eve where the only things that a teacher has talked to me about is my dc getting better marks as they need to achieve to get a good job. yes there is something to be said for this scheme but it is not the only reason to learn.

if you though dont want to better yourself it doesn't make you a bad person or a lazy person, you may have reached your own limit and want to stay at that level - whatever level that is.

It is heartenting to see people expressing views similar to those I hold.

It is the idea of education as a way out of poverty that has driven and still drives some people to succeeed. In Britain today, as has been mentioned, education is no longer viewed in that light and, let's face it, 15 minutes of fame on some ghastly reality show can earn you more in fees, newpaper and publishing deals, than 30 years of work and effort, as the late Ms Goody has amply demonstrated to us all!

The question has to be what are we educating kids today for? There are no jobs for them. The CBI has been hinting that there are not enough graduates for future jobs see here despite the armies of media studies, tourism and leisure, [wtf?] and business studies "graduates" we are apparently churning out! We've got 6th formers who shouldn't be in school but are now being compelled to stay by law in order to massage future unemployment figures. Internationally, Britain continues to rank ever lower in the league tables, especially in the production of science graduates, and despite all the consumer durables, "lifestyle" choices, "feel good" factors, and the mantra "every child matters" being pushed in schools British kids still come out feeling depressed and anxious, see today's BBC site here.

Until the government [ANY government] recognises that education has to be elitist and only the best will succeed and then ensures that adequate help is given to enable the best to do their best, then we will continue on this ever downward spiral!

Life is competetive - we can't all be winners! Those who do win, do so by hard work and effort - but that's one truism too many kids today don't want to hear!

Life is competitive certainly but but depends what you mean by winners. One of the fabulous young people I know will never 'be succesful' by the definition that she will never go to university, get a high flying, high paid job or probably move far from where she lives. (I know that's not what you were suggesting but it seems to be a popular belief)
Last time we met she told me she had asked her teacher for extra help so she could pass her GCSE maths and English at grade C so she could train as a carer for handicapped children. She's the nicest, most practical, down to earth girl who has such a deep empathy for all people from all walks of life and she would be fantastic. She's really set her mind to it and she will do it. Most o the parents I work for would scream in horror. Is she a winner? Definitely
Every child has diffferent needs and agree totally with Lucia that the story of childhood in Britain is pretty depressing at the moment. Education - coupled with a good upbringing (definition of that will be different for every person) should help the child to become the best person they can possibly be but that may or may not be the sort of person deemed in this day and age to be successful.

I agree with Spokette and others about how motivated many immigrants to this country have been, and still are.

I personally know an incredibly motivated young woman from S America. She stayed for a while in my mum's spare room. She had arrived in London with no English at the age of 14 on a student visa, to study at a language college. Her family was not wealthy, so she paid her own fees from working as an early morning office cleaner (disreputable firm, did not check age, ID etc). She then moved onto a FE college to where she sat GCSE's, but still had to pay fees. All the while she was staying in her Aunt's flat (on the sofa). My mum had a spare room, and agreed to take her in. My mum had links with a local 6th form college, who agreed to take her on without noticing that she was an overseas student. This enabled her to give up the cleaning job and she paid back their generosity with straight A's and a place at Oxford. Getting funding for her degree was difficult, but she managed to get an award.

I doubt that my own children would show such determination at such a young age. However, I do think that there is something special about the many people who travel half way around the world to forge a new life for themselves. It makes me hopping mad when people give out about immigrants. This country would be on its knees if everyone went home!