The value of education in the UK

[spokette]

I was watching Newsnight Review last night and I actually agreed wholeheartedly with something that Michael Portillo said!

They were reviewing the Venezuelan Youth Orchestra and the question was asked about its origins and why something like that could not happen in the UK. The orchestra provides a route to help poor and at risk youths to channel their energies and focus into classical music and their musical abilities are just simply inspirational.

During the discussion, Portillo said that in most parts of the world, education is seen as a means of escaping poverty and providing one with opportunities to better themselves. In the UK, there is a significant section of society who do not see the value in receiving an education and so that is why educational achievement in some areas is really poor. I actually agreed with him on that. As the daughter of immigrants, it never fails to perplex me why parents like mine used the opportunities this country provided and ended up with their own house whereas generations of indigenous folk have not achieved a fraction of what my parents did despite having the childhood advantages that my parents did not have.

I think it is because schools fail children from poor backgrounds very early on. Money needs to be spent when they are very young, especially where the parenting is poor. They need success, particularly in reading. If they can't read and get left behind it is much easier to mess around and call the whole system stupid than admit that they need help. Their parents also failed at school and so are anti schools and not comfortable with them. It is a cycle that needs to be broken.

I'm not entirely sure it can be broken tbh. I've worked in schools, nurseries and Surestart centres and it's easy to see how the system fails. It's a chicken and egg situation. The children are often failed by their parents who were failed by the system as children whose own children go on to be failed by the system.
I've have a child aged seven openly say to be he didn't have to learn to f read because he wasn't going to get a job because the social give you money. He had never seen anybody in his family go to work so there was no work ethic. An extreme example maybe but a prevalent one. Also Britain has a real culture of underachievement in it's schools expecially amongst boys despite the schools best efforts.
Also 'bettering yourself' what does it mean in England to our children. Reality TV - five minutes of fame, making a fast buck.
Bettering yourself takes time, effort and dedication from yourself and people around you.

I agree with Tavvy. I think we need some serious incentives and coercion if necessary for parenting classes if we are to break this cycle.

I helped a friend run parenting classes in a local primary school and the only ones that came are the ones who wanted to do better, not the ones that were doing a terrible job.

It's very hard to reach the ones that really need it. The gap between rich and poor in this country is so great.

I escaped harsh poverty because of my education and it is my driving force as a teacher. It used to break my heart in the school I used to teach in when I felt we were failing kids like me who needed an escape route.

Agree with Laurie - very hard to reach the ones that need it.
However it's not just the poor. The poor have obvious disadvantages but I've seen more damage done to children from extremely affluent backgrounds - money no object - the best education money can buy to know it goes far deeper than a rich/poor thing.
The difference is money can buy you a get out clause - sometimes.
I don't know what you do about it. I think most parents do what they think is best and most schools try extremely hard despite endless beaurocracy and lack of resources.
Am with Spokette - amazed I agree with Michael Portillo

Two of my friends children don't value education (parents don't either obviously) but they don't 'need' to as they are wealthy. They already have their millions to inherit plus business interests that require no input at all.

I don't care as much about the rich as I do about those who can never lift themselves out of poverty.

Must admit it worries me more because it's the children that will end up running the country and I do fear for the future given what I've seen. Maybe it was ever thus. I'm too young to know.
The value of education depends on the values you were brought up with. Cannot be dictated and sadly because of lack of resources in the state sector when you work in education there are times you do have to play God and choose - hardly every child matters.
Agree with Twinset - education is a passport out of poverty but some children for all sorts of reasons will never be able to access it despite endless government initiatives.

I became very disheartened in my final term of the school I used to teach in, perhaps because I knew I was leaving I had lost that zeal. My previous school had hardly any children who came from professional familes. Many came from homes where parents had spent a lot of time out of work or had never worked. The contrast with the new school I am teaching in could not be greater.

Maybe I am tired and cynical bit I sometimes think ECM should be renamed every middle class child matters.

Maybe because when they tried a similar thing in Scotland they put in a mere fraction of the money and seemed to spend most of that on matching T shirts for the first concert.

Also in a society where it is okay for children to walk to the rehearsals themselves (maybe not safe but just what everyone does) then the children are able to go. In a society where we see paedophiles around every corner it's less likely the children can go if the parents are working and busy or lazy and it's raining.

I agree with Tavvy.

There are various different factors at play, so no one simple solution is going to work. Ideally it would be possible to instil in every young child a genuine desire to learn for learning's sake. That's actually the job of the parents, but we all know it doesn't always happen. And realistically, you're never going to achieve that. (The quote from the 7 year old Tavvy makes shows that. From a young age children can be disaffected and switched off). That's why financial incentive to work hard and achieve well also has its place. If children grow up seeing that it's possible to live your entire life without working, relying on the state to house, feed and clothe you, and also seeing that many people who do get off their backsides and do an honest days work are not signficantly better off, and indeed are often the ones who lose their job, home etc when there's a downturn... is it any wonder that there are sections of society who will never value education?

And I also agree with the reality TV culture. It encourages children to aspire to the 'get rich quick' mentality, where people with no apparent personal qualities or skills can achieve celebrity and 'status'.

Something like that orchestra could happen in the UK if there was sufficent will to do it (noted the thread about the less successful - to date - Scottish venture). I suspect that a large proportion of the children who would shine would be the children of recent immigrants whose parents are desperate for them to do well, get established etc. I think there is a rump of British society that is almost institutionalised by the welfare state who are incapable of wanting better for their children. (I'm not against the welfare state, merely pointing out that it does have this effect on some people).

My 5yo DTS are currently taking piano lessons. The centre running the classes advertised the classes at all the local schools in the area which is a predominantly white area with pockets of social deprivation. Currently, there are 6 children taking classes. Three are of West Indian descent, two of African descent and only one who is of British descent but his mother is married to a Romanian.

The British woman is a teacher and she said to us that she could understand why more British parents in the area were not taking advantage of this service. She said that they would rather spend money on cigarettes or take aways rather than invest it in their children. She has also been accused by some as being a pushy parent.

That is why Michelle Obama's talk to those girls at the school in London was so applauded. It is cool to learn and achieve high grades and her message certainly chimed with people I know.

Teaching a child to learn to love learning for it's own sake is immensely valuable. Tying it into achieving things is not imo.

My Dh and I are highly educated but how that translates into everyday life is not remotely connected with money or 'stuff' - we both work in vocational jobs. It does translate into always doing courses, always learning, always reading, always seeking out neew interests.

Teaching a child that there is no such thing as boredom is one of the most valuable gifts.

Having a rich internal life with your own thoughts where you are happy is hard to give a child but must be practised at. There is nothing worse than a child who claims it is 'bored'.

I love nothing more than staring into space and thinking.

Where I live learning an instrument is for the rich. I have contacted the music service many times about more inclusivity and their get out is that they supply money for each school and it is up to the individual school how they divvy it up. Mainly it goes on upgrading instruments as far as I can see. There is no concession on the cost of lessons and therefore no encouragement for parents to take an interest. Even demontrations of instruments migh entice some people. School orchestras are full of children either from musical backgrounds, whose parents may go without, or well-off backgrounds. At primary level you can share a lesson, at secondary they are 1-to-1 at a minimum cost of £100 per term. I think it's sad

That is a shame, elling, and I think music has been one of the first subjects in teh firing line when cuts have to be made.

I do feel lucky to live in an area where group music lessons are offered at primary school to those with some basic aptitude. My local high school happens to put great emphasis on music so there are one to one lessons (free) and a huge variety of performance groups. The staff and pupils work together to put on terrific shows. If there is a little money and a whole lot of talent and dedication by staff, it is amazing what can be achieved.

I grew up in a relatively poor area because I didn't know any different I assumed that it was okay and it wasn't until I grew up and left the area that I could see that education just wasn't on a level playing field. Children from the area that I grew up in were never going to do as well as the children from the leafy middle class areas.

I can remember having a boyfriend when I was about 15 and I asked him what his career aspirations were he looked at me like I had just asked him if he had ever considered having a sex change and replied that he didn't have any. He didn't really have any plans but assumed that he would sponge off his mum and dad until he was 18 then claim dole money, when I said that he would never be able to afford his own place or travel on the amount he would receive on the dole he just laughed and said that he didn't want any those of things. He said as long as he had enough money to get pissed once a week and buy sweets he would be happy. Apparantly I was considered "snooty" by his family because I wanted to have a career.

After leaving my home town and making friends with people from middle class families I was shocked at just how different their backgrounds were to mine. I became quite close to a girl whose upbringing was a million miles away from my own she had gone to a top girls boarding school was very musical went skiing owned ponies that type of thing. Whereas I had grown up on a council estate, played truant and the most exotic destination I had ever been to was Blackpool. We were at a works function and I overheard two of the directors discussing us both, they were saying that they couldn't believe that we were the same age as my friend was so much more mature than I was they said that I was very capable and worked harder but socially I was immature and wasn't as poised and confident as my friend. I remember feeling embrassed and sad. I wasn't immature I was only 19 years old I had moved 100 miles away from my home town was paying a mortgage and studying part time for a degree level qualification. Unfortunately because of the limitations of my education and upbringing I didn't know my Liebraumilch from my Pouilly Fume and had a habit of blushing when someone in authority spoke to me. I think it is quite sad that they had effectively written me off at such a young age because of my background.

In the early 20th Century there was a big self-education movement amongst the working classes. People who had been forced to leave school at 14 to earn a living went to evening classes and joined groups like the Workers' Educational Association. There was a famous group of painters in a pit village in the North East.

My grandad was a shoemaker who stood at a factory bench all day but read very widely and gave my mother a love of debate and discussion. He did everything he could to encourage her to go to grammar school and pay for the uniform and all the necessary expenses, at a time when other working class kids routinely had to turn down places because their families simply couldn't afford it.

I don't know why it changed but there simply isn't the same drive any more, as far as I can see. Of course, there have always been plenty of people in circumstances where they can't see the point of education but there doesn't seem to be any counter-movement these days.

It used to be a lot easier to be counter-cultural. Less tv channels, less multi media. People used to go out a lot more (dances, evening classes etc)

You have to make a real effort to turn the tv off, cook your own food, access libraries.

It's just so easy to take the easy option now.

I'm probably going to be shot down in flames but I've got to say I think Jamie Oliver and similar people Hugh FW are people we need to work with here, to convince the government to give everyone some self respect back. In knowing more common sense things like how to eat healthly, basic DIY, grow your own veg, car maintenence etc etc.

We need people who have a lot of clout to make public what the government don't want public. The government are the ones who have the purse and they need to put more into schools for the long term rather than short term. Not everyone can afford all the extras.

As the daughter of immigrants, it never fails to perplex me why parents like mine used the opportunities this country provided and ended up with their own house whereas generations of indigenous folk have not achieved a fraction of what my parents did despite having the childhood advantages that my parents did not have.

It is because your parents had get up and go within them and the indeginous population hadn't got that attribute. Your parents had the desire to want something and then made it happen. Not everyone has that type of personality.

Good for your parents.

When you can't have something it is often the case that it is then that that you want.

Take away state funded education in this country and what would happen? I doubt that the population would take it lying down....

I think there's a lot of truth in that ivykaty.

There is a section of society that is complacent, and enabled by the system to stay far enough into their comfort zone to not have the incentive to better themselves.

But Sprogger social aspiration is what defines the middle class, for better or for worse.

I think working class life has been under attack for decades mainly due to the destruction of the manufacturing sector and movement into a poorly paid de-skilled service industry jobs.

I hate the way working class people are treated by the newspapers and television, as a feckless group of people needing to be saved, the lurid stories of poverty and squalor, spending their benefits down the pub or on fags.

There are people who live like this, many more who draw benefits sporadically, work when they can, have decent housing and a good life they are happy with.

One national newspaper reporter phoned a friend (who does PR for a London council) to ask if she could recommend a 'safe' council estate for her to go on FFS.

There is nothing wrong with being working class.