Why, when so many places in England ONLY have CoE state schools....

[Blu]

...do so many posters get berated for questioning the level of worship and religous practice their children are expected to participate in?

Often a poster will explain that their only local state schools are CoE, only to be told 'what do you expect?' 'you signed up for it!' 'You chose to send your child toa faith school!'.

Many many people really do not have a choice. The ONLY state education on offer to them is in a faith school.

Why do they get shouted at?

And is it OK that this lack of choice be the case? Shouldn't state faith schools in this position be a bit sensitive to the fact?

Sorry, I'm going to have to stop going on about it: I nearly deleted the post because I do feel I'm getting to be an awful bore on the subject. Consider it deleted.

Approaching from a different angle: as a teacher myself I would find it utterly creepy if my students weren't allowed to tell me when I got things wrong. If they had to just watch me flounder and then went home and told their families all about it...

Not to digress any further.

Cory, I'm sorry that your daughter had a hard time.

I do think that children and yp should question authority and understand that sometimes people in authority can get it very wrong but I thought that the tone of solidgoldshaggingbunnies post was a bit .

My ds was on the receiving end of incompetent teachers and I know how much damage it can cause. I guess that recently I've seen a lot of kids with the sort of attitude voiced in gsb's post giving a lot of flack to perfectly nice teachers and I was trying to show another side to the argument.

So, sorry if I caused offence, of course teachers can be awful but they can be very good and kids can miss out on the good stuff if they start thinking that their teachers are all power crazy inadequate shits when they're told to sit down and stop talking.

It's a fine line I guess.

As for faith schools, I'm totally with Blu and Cory. I really objected to my dc's being taught religious stories as factual and this was in a supposedly secular school.

I think it's all totally anachronistic and to do with the strange mix o xhurch and state we have in this country.

We're Jewish and while I'm sure our local village school is lovely, I'm dreading her coming home spouting about Jesus. I'm already having to bend over backwards to make her give a crap about Jewish festivals when pre-school goes on and on and on about Easter and Christmas so that's all she's interested in. She starts school this September and I sooooooooo wish we had a choice of a non-Christian school to send her to.

Just to add, to those who ask why we don't just send our children to another school if we feel so strongly about religion...

It isn't just religion that I feel strongly about. I also feel strongly about walking to school rather than having to damage the environment by driving. And I feel strongly about my children having school friends who live in the same road as them so they will have a full social life. These issues are never simple. In the end, my child's need to a good education and a happy childhood full of local friends outweigh my own discomfort about religious issues.

But I am very sad that DD's entry into education, which should be exciting for all of us, has this big black cloud hanging over it. How do explain to a newly 4yo that we don't actually agree with her teachers?

Cory: it's examples like yours that make me really with people who bleat about 'upholding the authority of the school' without question.

Had to tell you all about something ds's told me today.
Ds1 was particularly worried as he is a greedy guts

Headteacher was talking in assembly today about the true meaning of Easter and told the children that it was disgraceful that they didn't know the real meaning and that he would write letters home to the parents, so they wouldn't get any Easter Eggs What????????
Had to reassure ds1 that if gets a letter home, I will be writing back telling him my views on the real meaning of Easter.

AnnieLobe, you'll probably find the school is keen for you to go in and tell the children about Jewish festivals and so on, our local school sends out requests for parents to do this (but we live in an area with few religious minorities). I think families who have an alternative religion are better catered for as schools and RE can cope with that quite well, and even like it.

It's the secular anti-religious parents they have trouble catering for, not those of other faiths, in my experience.

btw I agree about the walking to school thing, that's been the main issue for us in "choosing" a school.

I do think you can teach your children to have some respect for their teachers and school, while simultaneously telling them you disagree with some of their teachers' views. I'm quite keen on supporting teachers, I think most of the ones I know are doing a fantastic job, BUT I don't agree with Christian teaching. It's not that hard, my dds get this. Similarly all my dds' grandparents are active Christians, they understand that their grandparents and parents have opposing and incompatible views on these things.

Some thoughts.

We're C of E and sent our kids to a state C of E primary, the only school in our area. So far so good.

However the school has now been hijacked by a handful of evangelist types on the governing body and school leadership team, whose take on Christianty is very far removed from our own. It is a dark view of faith in which children are said to be full of sin and need redeeming, and at one point posters were even put up in school to that effect (and hastily taken down when met with a chorus of protests from the other parents, it must be said).

The effect that it has had on my children is for them to lose their faith completely. They watched this bunch of supposed Christians bully and manipulate each other and the children and parents as well, and they decided this was about as Godless as it gets. And they are right, tbh. Out of the mouths of babes and all that.

The kids are starting at a nice, sensible community primary school next week. And I tell you, I will breathe a huge sigh of relief at being able to leave that bunch of miserable, in-fighting, self-protecting sods well and truly behind. It has been a nightmare trying to be supportive of the school while it was so clear that it was actually highly dysfunctional.

This and other issues has led me to believe that all state schools should be secular now. It is hugely anachronistic to use public funds to promote the personal beliefs of selected religious groups. Let the churches support such schools for those who want them.

My thoughts on this thread were much less deep than yours boffin - just that isnt it weird that MN is divided into one groups of parents (typically in London) who are desperately trying to get their dcs into faith schools even though they are not religious and one group who desperately want to get out.

I struggle with this one too - our local schools are community, rather than faith schools, but they still have Christian themed assembly, pray three times a day, etc.
Being part of the 30% of British citizens who don't identify as Christian, I would much prefer a secular option.
But what really pisses me off is that they don't even teach accurately about Christianity. So, for example, the children in dd's school are coming away with the impression that the Gospels were written down contemporaneously and are accepted as 100% literal truth by all Christian believers. Which, as another thread has been discussing, is clearly not remotely the case. Surely if they are going to teach Christianity they could have the grace (sorry, unintentional pun) to explore the complexities of religion - a great opportunity to discuss all sorts of useful and interesting aspects of history. Actually, I suspect that a "properly" religious school would probably do a better job.
Sorry, rant over.

I don't think there should be any state-funded faith schools. I do think children need to be taught about religions but in a way that allows them to question whether a religion is a 100% good thing. For example, is it good that some religions (including Christianity - eg discussion about women bishops) still discriminate against women? But I suspect schools are far too worried about being considered intolerant to raise those kind of issues.

However, most village primaries are CofE in name-only - they aren't any less secular than other state primary schools.

All those opposed to England's church schools should move to the USA. It is a marvelous country. And you can enjoy the separation of church and state to your heart's content -- especially now that Bush has skeedaddled off of Pennsylvania Avenue.

I, personally, love our church school and wouldn't trade it for a non-church state school. This is particularly ironic given that I am an Amercian decended from the very people who fled this country for the land of the free in order to get away from the union of church and state. Oh, I dare say my ancestors are probably not happy with me.

I so feel for you BoffinMum. All the schools around here are CofE and we are atheist. I chose one which was less overtly religious than the rest but now a new headteacher has taken over along with a new chair of Governors. My youngest daughter was told on the last day of term (by the headteacher) that she would have to change her work because she said that she didn't think that Jesus rose from the dead. She is very upset and now wants to not do any RE. I will go into the school and get to the bottom of it but I will consider withdrawing her from worship now. Other posters are right-it seems that you must repect other people's faiths at school(which is what I want my children to learn and I won't withdraw her from all RE as I want her to have an informed opinion as she gets older) but the atheist/agnostic can be told they are wrong by intolerant evangelists. I will also question why in 6 years of "balanced RE teaching" according tot he school it is only Chritianity and other faiths that are studied and not atheism/humanism etc. I will not be popular i think!

AtheneNoctua - Why do all American schoolchildren have to pledge allegiance ' under God' every day yet religion is a no no in schools? I don't get it.