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Why, when so many places in England ONLY have CoE state schools....

115 replies

Blu · 31/03/2009 16:58

...do so many posters get berated for questioning the level of worship and religous practice their children are expected to participate in?

Often a poster will explain that their only local state schools are CoE, only to be told 'what do you expect?' 'you signed up for it!' 'You chose to send your child toa faith school!'.

Many many people really do not have a choice. The ONLY state education on offer to them is in a faith school.

Why do they get shouted at?

And is it OK that this lack of choice be the case? Shouldn't state faith schools in this position be a bit sensitive to the fact?

OP posts:
abraid · 01/04/2009 21:23

I really and truly do not understand why so many educated and articulate parents do not simply start their own chain of non-religious schools and apply for state funding. I'm not being aggressive here. If there are so many of you and you feel it so strongly why not band together? Parents have started schools before.

Ironically, that's how the original Catholic schools started: parishioners (often illiterate and very poor) setting up their own schools.

Ivykaty44 · 01/04/2009 22:07

abraid which do you do first - set up the school or apply for state funding? Not being funny, genuine question.

TheOldestCat · 01/04/2009 22:17

Well that's a good point, abraid. If the sale of our flat falls through and we are stuck where we are, DD will HAVE to go to a CofE or RC primary as they're the only ones we have. So if god forbid tee hee - that happens we'll be in the situation Blu is talking about. I will be complaining if she has to worship something I don't want her believing in, so I'll be campaigning for a non-Christian school.

But with luck we'll be out of the area soon

FairLadyOfMuslinCloth · 01/04/2009 22:20

hm....our local school is a school with many "english is a 2. language" school....it's in a poor area in a poor town, we chose to move here...therefore....would it be right to complain about it....

hester · 01/04/2009 22:27

Completely agree with you, Blu. What completely offends me is not faith schools per se, but that they are selective and, where they dominate the local education system, this makes a mockery of the idea of parental choice.

There are two excellent state primaries IN MY STREET, but they are wildly oversubscribed faith schools and dd will not get into either of them because we are not Christian. (The nearest non-faith schools that we are likely to get offered a place at are two bus rides away - I work, and I don't drive.)

At secondary level, our borough boasts five secondary schools - FOUR of which are RC. (And the fifth one is a terrible school, of course.) As a Jewish lesbian mother I seriously don't want my daughter to go to a Catholic school.

And no, I don't have the time or money to set up my own school. And I shouldn't have to: my taxes are paying for these schools! I have been paying taxes for over two decades and I do ruddy feel that should entitle my dd to go to a local primary within walking distance.

ingles2 · 01/04/2009 22:31

You are absolutely right blu.
I'm not happy about the amount of religious practice/worship my boys have to take part in.
I'm not happy listening to my 7yr old tell me that God created the world in 7 days and that is the absolute truth because Miss xxxx told him.
However I have no choice as we live in a rural area and the only schools in the vicinty are Cof E. I would have to travel miles to deliver them to a secular school, as it is, I have to drive 6 miles each way to school.
This lack of choice is not ok imo.

FairLadyOfMuslinCloth · 01/04/2009 22:32

the school is generally doing a good job though

edam · 01/04/2009 22:36

abraid - people have tried to set up secular schools, government has blocked it. You aren't allowed.

However, I do sometimes wonder whether the sort of selfish society we live in has rather a lot to do with the decline of shared moral values and teaching those moral values in schools.

By selfish, I mean a spectrum from the 'greed is good' ethos of recent decades, valuing commerce above all else, insisting public services should bow down before the City types who could tell them how to run everything, through to anti-social behaviour and a general lack of respect for each other in public.

When I was a teenager, or younger, I knew damn well if I was misbehaving or appeared to be misbehaving in public, any passing adult would tell me off in no uncertain terms.

Doesn't appear to be the case these days - and there would certainly be strong support from many on MN for any mother starting a thread about 'how DARE someone tell my precious child off'.

I am not saying that Christianity or the CofE is superior to any other religion. And I'm all for challenging anyone who thinks they have a monopoly or claim on the truth. But it is possible that we have lost something as we've lost the broad social consensus about moral standards.

Maybe I'm just becoming an old fart, like the Romans who used to complain about the youth of today (although I'm not really complaining about kids - crappy behaviour in public seems as much an adult problem). But I do think that shared consensus based on being taught about heroes and heroines such as Grace Darling and Florence Nightingale is actually, in retrospect, quite valuable.

(And yes, I know FN is more complicated than the children's story, same way the genetics of eye colour is more complicated than we were taught at school. But you have to teach the basics before you can go onto the complex stuff.)

BetsyBoop · 01/04/2009 23:03

I'm just curious as to how many of the people who are anti faith schools went to one themselves. If you did, do you think it gave you a good education or not? I'm kind of assuming all the antis are aetheists, so if you made your own mind up, surely your DC can do the same?

I ask as both DH & I went to (different) CofE primaries, he's not a christian, I am. I don't think our schools "caused" either result. We both think that we went to excellent schools.

We also hope to get DD & DS into our local faith school to help them learn about christianity (as well as what they will learn at home) & they can make their own mind up when they are ready, just as we did. If learning about another religion interests them, we'll help with that too, it's up to them.

I'm all for parental choice though, and I do think it's wrong that people don't have a near option (say within 3 miles? as that is how far I travelled to my primary, it was the nearest school to home) of a non-faith school, so they can't make a choice.

BetsyBoop · 01/04/2009 23:10

edam

I know what you are saying (or maybe I'm just an old fart too )

I look around me now & compared to say 20yrs ago, I see so much angry, jealousy, hate, bad manners, disrespect, valuing of the wealth of a person instead of the person themselves etc & I wonder what's caused this change, where did we go wrong?

Society has become more secular during the same period too, is this just coincidence?

Blu · 01/04/2009 23:18

FairLady - what on earth does that have to do with it? (your first post about moving t an area where many children have ESOL) This is about the provision, offered by our government to the people who are entitled to it and who pay taxes to pay for it. it isn't about the other peolpe who use the provision!

This whole arguent, from my point of view, is actually more about politics than religion. I honestly have no beef with or over religion for those that partake. I DO have an argument in principle with a state provision that teaches children that the christian god exists, and leaves huge areas of the country with no choice over that.

OP posts:
hester · 01/04/2009 23:19

The thing is, I would be quite happy for dd to go to a CoE school. But, because they're allowed to be selective, our local faith schools won't choose me! Even though we live on the doorstep. And THAT'S what gets my goat: that they are allowed to select on the basis of faith, even though we all know that most of the parents that get their kids in (in this area anyway) are not seriously religious. I'm quite happy for dd to be taught about faith, and about God - she can get my views at home, and make up her own mind - but I do draw the line at getting her baptised, and attending church every week, which is what you have to do to get into our local schools. It is not faith schools per se that I object to, but the part they play in the current education system.

FairLadyOfMuslinCloth · 01/04/2009 23:29

hmm...my point is , you know where the schools are/abpout school provision...and if you have a real choice....than you consider that....a faithschool is a faitschool and presumably take pride in that and also their teaching will be focussed in a certain way....so, if you send your kid there you accept that...
just as I accept things here at my kids school...however, as english is my second language, I obviously have no problem with the school.....however the enlish/british schoolsystem all in all....and yo see a not so happy me...

ingles2 · 01/04/2009 23:34

But that's exactly what Blu is complaining about Fairlady. We cannot choose a school with a secular outlook.
There are no other schools in the area
so we have no choice.

Blu · 01/04/2009 23:36

Yes, FairLady, and in the area I live in you can actually CHOOSE between an excellent communiy school, a catholic or CoE, or in fact, Muslim school. So having chosen any of those, I would expect a parent to accept the religious teaching - or not - that happens there. The point is that in many areas there is no such choice - ALL parents have to send children to a school that practices CoE christianity. Why should anyone be left with that LACK of choice.

We were offered a place at a lovely CoE school for DS. Had he gone there, I would have supported the school, let him get on with taking part and making his mind up (I would have shared with him my own athiest views, of course), because I would have accepted what goes on with my choosing the school. As it is, we were able to choose a lovely community school. THAT'S how it should be, if we have faith schools within the system. genuine choice - both ways.

OR no state funded state schools. At All.

OP posts:
FairLadyOfMuslinCloth · 01/04/2009 23:44

oh...duh...got ya...and sorry, i suppose you are right...x chosing in the broader sense

solidgoldshaggingbunnies · 02/04/2009 00:18

I do (frequently) wonder about all this 'support the school and tell your DC to obey the teachers' business. WHen DS starts school, should he have any kind of issue with a teacher over anything, my first move will be to find out what's actually happening NOT to tell him to obey the teachers and suck it up. Because some teachers are nasty little inadequate shits who like to bully children and enforce stupid rules just to exercise power. Of course, some children behave badly and need to be taught that bad behaviour is unacceptable, but I do think that the unquestioning dumbfuck 'respect your betters' attitude that some people not only have but want to pass on, very unhealthy. Just because someone has a name tag or a badge or a Profession doesn't mean they are always right.

Blu · 02/04/2009 09:10

I'm not sure that wanting to send your child to a school where the teaching is based on something that you absolutely do not believe, is tantamount to an unquestioning dumfuck state of mind.

Supporting the school means enhancing and extending the positive education they get - and obviously challenging, questioning, etc.

Perhaps you should make a point of sending your child to a faith school, SGB, so that you can start off chalenging what they teach - before you even get to the nasty inadequate shit of a Reception teacher. Best way to ensure constant questioning

OP posts:
TheOldestCat · 02/04/2009 09:19

BetsyBoop - I didn't go to a faith school and I think I turned out ok, even with my secular upbringing.

But I'm not 'anti-faith school' one little bit - each to their own. I just don't want DD to go to one, if I can help it.

Maria33 · 02/04/2009 10:07

Teaching your children that "some teachers are nasty little inadequate shits who like to bully children and enforce stupid rules just to exercise power" is a REALLY dumbfuck thing to do.

Having just spent 6 months in secondary schools the one big thing I've taken home to my own family is that the children who respect their teachers (whether or not they always deserve it) get way more out of school than those who couldn't possibly 'suck it up'.

Healthy questioning and standing up for yourself can only grow from an informed and educated mind.

12 year olds who can't sometimes 'suck it up' are just f*ing dumb and likely to stay that way.

paisleyleaf · 02/04/2009 10:27

The local primary schools are all CofE here
there's no 'choice' ....we can put our "preferences" on the application. But preference does not mean choice on school applications.
It's something I've been thinking about, as I am uncomfortable with the daily worship they all talk about.

mumblechum · 02/04/2009 10:27

I think this thread is digressing maybe a bit too much!

I'm with you, Blu, ourds went to the village school despite it being CofE, not because of it and he just had to learn to bite his tongue when the religious indoctrination kicked in. Most kids make their own minds up about what they believe (except, I suppose, Muslims who don't have a choice).

cory · 02/04/2009 11:14

Maria33 Thu 02-Apr-09 10:07:55 Add a message | Report post | Contact poster

\2Having just spent 6 months in secondary schools the one big thing I've taken home to my own family is that the children who respect their teachers (whether or not they always deserve it) get way more out of school than those who couldn't possibly 'suck it up'.
...
12 year olds who can't sometimes 'suck it up' are just f*ing dumb and likely to stay that way. "

Maria, I think you would take to my dd.

She "sucked up" having to crawl on her hands and knees to get into the toilet at junior school, because the headteacher wanted to keep the disabled loo for visitors.

She "sucked up" crawling up the stairs to get to her maths lessons because noone would move her set to the bottom floor.

When she was no longer able to crawl, she "sucked up" the fact that she would not be getting any more maths lessons. She just sat quietly in the classroom as she had been told and received no tuition.

She sucked up the fact that her history teacher set her a home project about the Middle Ages and insisted on her using the provided sources- all of which were post-1590s.

She also "sucked up" that her friend was wrongly accused of causing her own accident by messing about. Dd had seen the incident and knew her friend had not been messing about (a teacher had accidentally kicked the mat).

She sucked up when her friend was told off in assembly for misbehaving.

Because my dd believes that criticising any decision by a teacher is wrong.

Naturally, she does not tell me about these things until afterwards. Because I think everybody has a duty to protest against wrong decisions, whatever the status of the parties involved.

You wouldn't like me much. But you'd love my daughter.

Fennel · 02/04/2009 16:22

Even if you choose a "community school" (as we have) there's no guarantee there won't be a lot of organised Christian worship, active evangelism and church services involved. We have all that, in our only local school which is officially not a religious one. Very few of the parents are churchgoers, but several of the teachers are Christians and the local vicar and curate and churchwarden are all active in doing things with the school. The school choir sings things like Hosanna Chorus and other explicitly Christian stuff.

Just wanting to make the point that it's not even as easy as sending your children to the local community school, there is still a strong Christian emphasis in many of these.

Though it does give you a stronger case for not approving or supporting that aspect of school.

edam · 02/04/2009 16:34

Cory, I've seen your posts about the terrible time your dd had before. Appalling.

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